Text Of Clinton Testimony (11)
This is part 11 of President Clinton's grand jury testimony:
OIC ATTORNEY: That was her allegation. And, notwithstanding that that was her allegation, you've testified that you understood the term sexual relations, in the context of the questions you were being asked, to mean something else, at least insofar as you were the recipient rather than the performer?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Sir, Paula Jones' lawyers pulled out that definition, not me. And Judge Susan Webber Wright ruled on it, just as she later ruled their case had no merit in the first place, no legal merit, and dismissed it.
I had nothing to do with the definition, nothing to do with the Judge's rulings. I was simply there answering questions they put to me, under the terms of reference they imposed.
OIC ATTORNEY: Well, the grand jury would like to know, Mr. President, why it is that you think that oral sex performed on you does not fall within the definition of sexual relations as used in this deposition.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Because that is -- if the deponent is the person who has oral sex performed on him, then the contact is with -- not with anything on that list, but with the lips of another person. It seems to be self-evident that that's what it is. And I thought it was curious.
Let me remind you, sir, I read this carefully. And I thought about it. I thought about what "contact" meant. I thought about what "intent to arouse or gratify" meant. And I had to admit under this definition that I'd actually had sexual relations with Gennifer Flowers. Now, I would rather have taken a whipping than done that, after all the trouble I'd been through with Gennifer Flowers, and the money I knew that she made for the story she told about this alleged 12-year affair, which we had done a great deal to disprove.
So, I didn't like any of this. but I had done my best to deal with it and the -- that's what I thought. And I think that's what most people would think, reading that.
OIC ATTORNEY: Would you have been prepared, if asked by the Jones lawyers, would you have been prepared to answer a question directly asked about oral sex performed on you by Monica Lewinsky?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: If the judge had required me to answer it, of course, I would have answered it. And I would have answered it truthfully, if I--
OIC ATTORNEY: By the way, do you believe that the ---
PRESIDENT CLINTON: -- had been required.
OIC ATTORNEY: -- Jones litigants had the same understanding of sexual relations that you claim you have?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't know what their understanding was, sir. My belief is that they thought they'd get this whole thing in, and that they were going to -- what they were trying to do is do just what they did with Gennifer Flowers. They wanted to find anything they could get from me or anyone else that was negative, and then they wanted to leak it to hurt me in the presswhich they did even though the Judge ordered them not to.
So, I think their --
OIC ATTORNEY: Wouldn't it -- I'm sorry.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I think their position, Mr. Bennett -- you asked the question - their position was, we're going to cast the widest net we can and get as much embarrassing stuff as we can, and then dump it out there and see if we can make him bleed. I think that's what they were trying to do.
OIC ATTORNEY: Don't you think, sir, that they could have done more damage to you politically, or in whatever context, if they had understood the definition in the same way you did and asked the question directly?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't know, sir. As I said, I didn't work with their lawyers in preparing this case. I knew the case was wrong. I knew what your evidence was. By the time of this deposition, they knew what their evidence was.
Their whole strategy was, well, our lawsuit's not good, but maybe we can hurt him with the discovery. And you know, they did some. But it didn't amount to much.
And did I want, if I could, to avoid talking about Monica Lewinsky? Yes, I'd give anything in the world not to be here talking about it. I'd be giving -- I'd give anything in the world not to have to admit what I've had to admit today.
But if you look at my answer in the Flowers (sic) deposition, at least you know I tried to carefully fit all my answers within the framework there, because otherwise there was no reason in the wide world for me to do anything other than make the statements I'd made about Gennifer Flowers since 1991, that I did not have a 12-year affair with her, and that these, the following accusations she made are false. So that's all I can tell you. I can't prove anything.
OIC ATTORNEY: But you did have a great deal of anxiety in the hours and days following the end of your deposition on the 17th. Isn't that fair to say?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I had a little anxiety the next day, of course, because of the Drudge Report. And I had an anxiety after the deposition because it was more about Monica Lewinsky than it was about Paula Jones.
OIC ATTORNEY: The specificity of the questions relating to Monica Lewinsky alarmed you, isn't that fair to say?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, and it bothered me, too, that I couldn't remember the answers. It bothered me that I couldn't -- as Mr. Wisenberg pointed out, it bothered me that I couldn't remember all the answers. I did the best I could. And so I wanted to know what the deal was. Sure.
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, to your knowledge, have you turned over, in response to the grand jury subpoenas, all gifts that Monica Lewinsky gave you?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: To my knowledge, I have, sir. As you know, on occasion, Mr. Kendall has asked for your help in identifying those gifts. And I think there were a couple that we came across in our search that were not on he list you gave us, that I remembered in the course of our search had been given to me by Monica Lewinsky and we gave them to you.
OIC ATTORNEY: Can you explain why, on the very day that Monica Lewinsky testified in the grand jury on August 6th of this year, you wore a necktie that she had given you?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No sir, I don't believe I did. What necktie was it?
OIC ATTORNEY: The necktie you wore on August 6th, sir.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I don't know that it was a necktie that Monica Lewinsky gave me. Can you describe it to me?
OIC ATTORNEY: Well, I don't want to take time at this point, but we will provide you with photographic evidence of that, Mr. President.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: If you give me -- I don't believe that's accurate, Mr. Bennett.
OIC ATTORNEY: So, let me ask the question --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: But if you give it to me, and I look at it and remember that she gave it to me, I'll be happy to produce it. I do not believe that's right.
OIC ATTORNEY: Well, if you remember that she gave it to you, why haven't you produced it to the grand jury?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember that she gave it to me. That's why I asked you what the tie was. I have --
OIC ATTORNEY: Can you --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: -- no earthly idea. I believe that, that I did not wear a tie she gave me on August the 6th.
OIC ATTORNEY: Can you tell us why Bayani Nelvis wore a tie that Monica Lewinsky had given you on the day he appeared in the grand jury?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't know that he did.
OIC ATTORNEY: Have you given Bayani Nelvis any ties, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Oh, yes, a lot of ties.
OIC ATTORNEY: And so if he wore the tie that you gave him, that Monica Lewinsky had given you, that would not have been by design, is that what you're telling us?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Oh, absolutely not. Let me --
OIC ATTORNEY: You are not --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: May I explain, Mr. Bennett? I won't --
OIC ATTORNEY: Yes.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: -- take long. Every year, since I've been president, I've gotten quite a large number of ties, as you might imagine. I get, I have a couple of friends, one in Chicago and one in Florida who give me a lot of ties, a lot of other people who send me ties all the time, or give them to me when I see them.
So, I always have a growing number of ties in my closet. What I normally do, if someone gives me a tie as a gift, is I wear it a time or two. I may use it. But at the end of every year, and sometimes two times a year, sometimes more, I go through my closet and I think of all the things that I won't wear a lot or that I might give away. I give them mostly to the men who work there.
I give them to people like Glen and Nelvis, who work in the kitchen, back ithe White House, or the gentlemen who are my stewards or butlers, or the people who run the elevators. And I give a lot of ties away a year. I'll bet I -- excluding Christmas, I bet I give 30, 40, maybe more ties away a year, and then, of course, at Christmas, a lot.
So there would be nothing unusual if, in fact, Nelvis had a tie that originally had come into my tie closet from Monica Lewinsky. It wouldn't be unusual. It wouldn't be by design. And there are several other people of whom that is also true.
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, I'd like to move to a different area right now. I'd like to ask you some questions about Kathleen Willey. You met Kathleen Willey during your 1992 campaign, isn't that so?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir, I did.
OIC ATTORNEY: As a matter of fact, you first saw her at a rope line at the Richmond, Virginia airport on October 13, 1992, is that not correct?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't believe that is correct.
OIC ATTORNEY: When did you first meet her, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, let me ask you this. When was the debate in Richmond?
OIC ATTORNEY: Well, I believe it was October 13, 1992, sir.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I believe that I had met her -- I believe I had met her before then, because Governor Wilder, I believe that was his last year as governor -- I think that's right, 92-93. I believe that I met her in connection with her involvement with Governor Wilder.
And I have the impression -- it's kind of a vague memory, but I have the impression that I had met her once before, at least once before I came to that Richmond debate. Now, I'm not sure of that.
OIC ATTORNEY: Well, at least if you had met her before....
PRESIDENT CLINTON: But I am quite sure she was at the Richmond debate and I did meet her there. I'm quite sure of that.
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, you've seen television footage of you standing on a rope line with Donald Beyer, Lt. Governor Donald Beyer --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I have.
OIC ATTORNEY: -- asking Mr. Beyer for the name of Kathleen Willey?
You've seen that footage, haven't you?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't know that I've seen it, but I am aware that it exists.
OIC ATTORNEY: All right. And you can see him, you can read his lips. He's saying the name of Kathleen Willey in response to a question from you, isn't that so?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: That's what I've heard.
OIC ATTORNEY: And, as a matter of fact, you sent Nancy Hernreich, who was present on that day, to go get her telephone number, didn't you, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't believe so.
OIC ATTORNEY: You don't believe so?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, let me say this. If that is true, then I'm quite certain that I had met her before. I would neve call someone out of the blue what I saw on a rope line and send Nancy Hernreich to get her number to do it.
OIC ATTORNEY: Even if you were just learning her name for the first time?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: That's correct. I'm not so sure that I didn't ask Don Beyer, if he was on the rope line with me, who she was because I thought I had seen her before or I knew I had seen her before and I didn't remember her name. Now, I do that all the time. For men --
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: -- and women.
OIC ATTORNEY: I'm sorry. Do you recall that you sent Nancy Hernreich for her telephone number?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, I don't.
OIC ATTORNEY: All right. Do you recall, having received her telephone number, called her that night?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir, I don't.
OIC ATTORNEY: Do you recall inviting her to meet with you at your hotel that night?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir, I do not.
OIC ATTORNEY: Do you recall where you stayed in Richmond, Virginia during the
debates you've told us about?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I stayed at some hotel there, I believe.
OIC ATTORNEY: Actually, did you stay at the Williamsburg Inn, not in Richmond?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yeah, that's right. We prepared in Williamsburg. That's correct. I believe we prepared in Williamsburg and then went to Richmond for the debate, and then I think we spent the night in Richmond. And the next day, I think we had a rally before we left town. I believe that's right.
OIC ATTORNEY: Do you know of any reason Kathleen Willey's telephone number would appear on your toll records from your room in Williamsburg?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, there --
OIC ATTORNEY: If you didn't call her?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, I'm not denying that I called her, sir. You asked me a specific question. I won't deny that I called her. I don't know whether I did or not.
OIC ATTORNEY: As a matter of fact, you called her twice that day, didn't you, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't recall. I may well have done it and I don't know why I did it.
OIC ATTORNEY: Well, does it refresh your recollection that you called her and invited her to come to your room that night, sir?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't believe I did that, sir.
OIC ATTORNEY: If Kathleen Willey has said that, she's mistaken or lying, is that correct, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do not believe I did that. That's correct.
OIC ATTORNEY: But what is your best recollection of that conversation, those
conversations?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember talking to her. But I -- it seems to me that at some point - - this is why I believe I had met her before, too. But at some point I had somactual person-to-person conversation with her about my sore throat, or what she thought would be good for it, or something like that. I have some vague memory of that. That's it.
OIC ATTORNEY: Is this the chicken soup conversation, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I don't know if I would -- maybe that's what she said I should have. I don't remember. But I have no recollection, sir, of asking her to come to my room. I -- an I -- I'm sorry, I don't. I can't -- I won't deny calling her. I don't know if I did call her. I don't know if she tried to call me first. I don't know anything about that. I, I just -- I met her and Doug Wilder. I remember that she and her husband were active for Government Wilder, and that's about all I remember, except that I had a conversation with her around the Richmond debate. I do remember talking to her there.
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, let's move ahead to the episode on November 29, 1993 in which Mrs. Willey met you in your office at the Oval, the subject matter of the ``60 Minutes'' broadcast a few months ago. You recall that episode?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I certainly do.
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, in fact, on that date you did make sexual advances on Kathleen Willey, is that not correct?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: That's false.
OIC ATTORNEY: You did grab her breast, as she said?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I did not.
OIC ATTORNEY: You did place your hand in her groin area, as she said?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, I didn't.
OIC ATTORNEY: And you placed her hand on your genitals, did you not?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Bennett, I didn't do any of that, and the questions you're asking, I think, betray the bias of this operation that has troubled me for a long time. You know what evidence was released after the 60 Minutes broadcast that I think pretty well shattered Kathleen Willey's credibility. You know what people down in Richmond said about her. You know what she said about other people that wasn't true. I don't know if you've made all of this available to the grand jury or not.
She was not telling the truth. She asked for the appointment with me. She asked for it repeatedly.
OIC ATTORNEY: Did she make a sexual advance on you, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: On that day, no, she did not. She was troubled.
OIC ATTORNEY: On some other day?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I wouldn't call it a sexual advance. She was always very friendly. But I never took it seriously.
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, you mentioned the documents that were released and information that came out from people in Richmond, etcetera, after the 60 Minutes piece was broadcast. As a matter of fact, you were required, under the Court's rulings, to produce those documents in response to document requests by the Jones itigants, isn't that correct?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No. I believe the Jones litigants' request for production of documents to me ran to documents that were in my personal files and in my personal possessions, and did not cover documents that were White House files. So, I don't believe we were required to produce them.
As a matter of fact, when that story first ran, sir, before 60 Minute, back in July or so of '97, I was aware that we had some letters. I didn't -- I didn't remember that she's written us as much as she had and called as much as she had, and asked to see me as often as she had, after this alleged incident. I didn't know the volume of contact that she had which undermined the
story she has told. But I knew there was some of it.
And I made a decision that I did not want to release it voluntarily after Newsweek ran the story, because her friend Julie Steele was in the story saying she asked her -- she, Kathleen Willey -- asked her to lie. And because, frankly, her husband had committed suicide. She apparently was out of money. And I thought, who knows how anybody would react under that. So, I didn't.
But, now when 60 Minutes came with the story and everybody blew it up, I thought we would release it, But I do not believe we were required to release White House documents to the Jones lawyers.
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, have you made a decision on whether to stay beyond the four house we agreed to, to accept questions from the grand jury?
MR. KENDALL: We have made an agreement, Mr. Bennett, to give you four hours. We're going to do that. By my watch, there are about 12 minutes left.
MR. BENNETT: I guess that's no. Is that correct, Mr. Kendall?
MR. KENDALL: Yes, that's correct.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: May I ask this question? Could I have a two-minute break?
MR. BENNETT: Sure.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I'm sorry to bother you with this. I know we're getting to the end, but I need a little break.
(Whereupon, the proceedings were recessed from 6:04 p.m.. until 6:09 p.m.)
BY MR. STARR:
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, at various times in this investigation, officials have invoked executive privilege in response to questions that have been posed to them by the grand jury and in the grand jury. One of the grand jurors has posed the question, did you personally authorize the invocation of executive privilege
PRESIDENT CLINTON: If the answer is authorized, I think the answer to that would be yes. But I would like the grand jury to know something.
In the cases where we raised the lawyer/client privilege, or executive privilege, or where the Secret Service raised their privilege, and when I say -- I had nothing to do with that. I did not authorize it, approve it, or anything else. That was something that asked to be free to make their decision on by themselves.
In none of those cases did I actually have any worry about what the people involved would say. The reason those privileges were advanced and litigated was that I believed that there was an honest difference between Judge Starr and the Office of Independent Counsel, and Mr. Ruff, my counsel, and I about what the proper balance was in the Constitutional framework.
And I did not want to put the Presidency at risk of being weakened as an institution, without having those matters litigated. Now, we've lost some of those matters. Our people have testified and the grand jury is free to conclude whether they believe that the testimony they gave was damaging to me. But I don't, I don't imagine it was and I wasn't worried about it. It was an honest difference of Constitutional principal between Judge Starr and the Office of Independent Counsel and the White House.
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, a couple of very brief questions, given our time. The White House's outside counsel, Mr. Eggleston, withdrew the White House's appeal from Chief Judge Johnson's ruling that the invocation of executive privilege had to give way to the grand jury's right to the information, that ruling in connection with the testimony of Mr. Blumenthal and Mr. Lindsey.
Were you informed of that fact that the appeal had been withdrawn?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I was informed of it and, as a matter of fact, I was consulted about it and I strongly supported it. I didn't want to appeal it.
OIC ATTORNEY: Okay.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: It was -- I had -- my main difference, Judge Starr, as you know with you, is, and with some of the Court decisions, is on the extent to which members of the White House Counsel's staff, like Mr. Lindsey, should be able to counsel the president on matters that may seem like they are private, like the Jones case, but inevitably intrude on the daily work of the
president.
But I didn't really want to advance an executive privilege claim in this case beyond having it litigated, so that we, we had not given up on principal in this matter, without having some judge rule on it. So, I made --
OIC ATTORNEY: Excuse me. Are you are satisfied that you now have the benefit of that ruling, is that correct?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, yes. I just didn't want to, I didn't want to -- yes. And I didn't -- I made the -- I actually, I think, made the call, or at least I supported the call. I did not, I strongly felt we should not appeal your victory on the executive privilege issue.
MR. STARR: Thank you.
BY MR. WISENBERG:
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President among the many remaining questions of the grand jurors is one that they would like answered directly without relation to, without regard to inferences, which is the following: Did Monica Lewinsky perform oral sex on you? They would like a diret answer to that, yes or no?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, that's not the first time that question's been asked. But since I believe, and I think any person, reasonable person would believe that that is not covered in the definition of sexual relations I was given, I'm not going to answer, except to refer to my statement.
I had intimate contact with her that was inappropriate. I do not believe any of the contacts I had with her violated the definition I was given. Therefore, I believe I did not do anything but testify truthfully on these matters.
OIC ATTORNEY: We have a couple of photos of the tie that you wore.
Would you please give them to me?
OIC ATTORNEY: Yes.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Now, this is August 6th, is that correct?
OIC ATTORNEY: 1998, the day that Monica Lewinsky appeared at the grand jury. And my question to you on that is, were you sending some kind of a signal to her by wearing --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir.
OIC ATTORNEY: -- one of the ties -- let me finish, if you don't mind, sir.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Sure. I'm sorry. My apology.
OIC ATTORNEY: Were you sending some kind of a signal to her by wearing a tie she had given you on the day that she appeared in front of the grand jury?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir. I don't believe she gave me this tie. And if I was sending a signal, I'm about to send a terrible signal, and maybe you ought to invite her to talk again. I don't, I don't want to make light about this. I don't believe she gave me this tie. I don't remember giving, her giving me this tie. And I had absolutely no thought of this in my mind when I wore it.
If she did, I, I, I, I don't remember it, and this is the very first I've ever heard of it.
OIC ATTORNEY: Did you realize when you --
MR. WISENBERG: Can I just have for the record, what are the exhibit numbers?
MS. WIRTH: Yes. They should be WJC-5 and 6. (Grand Jury Exhibits WJC-5 and WJC-6 were marked for identification.)
MR. WISENBERG: Mr. Bennett has some more questions.
BY MR. BENNETT:
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, we were talking about your responses to document requests in the Jones litigation, and I had just asked you about turning over the Kathleen Willey correspondence. Do you recall that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir, I do.
OIC ATTORNEY: And, if I understand your testimony, you did not believe that the request for documents compelled you to search for those documents in the White House?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Bennett, I want to answer this question in a way that is completely satisfactory to you and the grand jury, without violating the lawyer/client privilege, which is still intact.
It was my understanding that in the request for production of documents, that those requests ran against and operated gainst my personal files. Now, I have some personal files in the White House. And, I'm sorry. In this case, I'm not my own lawyer, and I don't know how the distinction is made between files which are the personal files of the president, and files which are the White House files.
But I do have a very clear memory that we were duty-bound to search and turn over evidence or, excuse me, documents that were in my personal files, but not in the White House files. And I believe that the letters to which you refer, Ms. Willey's letters and Ms. Willey's phone messages, were in the White House files. And, therefore, I was instructed at least that they were, that we had fully compiled (sic) with the Jones lawyers' request, and that these documents
were outside the request.
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, you're not contending that White House documents, documents stored in the fashion that these were stored, are beyond your care, custody or control, are you?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Bennett, that may be a legal term of art that I don't have the capacity to answer. I can only tell you what I remember. I remember being told in no uncertain terms that if these were personal files of the president, we had to produce documents. If they were essentially White House files, we were not bound to do so. So, we didn't.
OIC ATTORNEY: So, you are saying somebody told you that you didn't have to produce White House documents?
Continue To Part 12 of President Clinton's testimony.