Steve Bannon on the GOP and the midterms: "We can't afford to lose"

There he was, in February 2017, on the cover of Time Magazine: Steve Bannon, chief White House strategist. They called him "The Great Manipulator." He threatened at times to overshadow the president himself – not the best career move – and for a while he visibly fell out of favor.

To this day, though, Bannon remains a passionate Trump supporter. "When Trump decides to leave the stage actively, he can't be replaced," he said. "Like Washington or Lincoln, these are people that they name the age of."

Yes, Bannon mentions Trump in the same breath as Washington and Lincoln. "Oh, I am," he said. "I think he's at that level. Because I think General Washington was there at the birth of the nation; Lincoln was the rebirth of the nation; and I absolutely believe (and I think 99% of MAGA believes) that Trump was there for the salvation of the nation."

Bannon is a man of unwavering commitment. He did four months in prison for contempt of Congress, for refusing to testify about his role in the events leading up to the January 6 assault on the U.S. Capitol (including telling podcast listeners on Jan. 5, 2021, "All hell is going to break loose tomorrow").

He set up an influential podcast, "War Room": Two hours in the morning, two hours in the evening. It was in his studio where, on September 29, we sat down for an interview.

Bannon clearly has a taste for the right wing. "Definitely, it's no doubt," he said. "I am right wing; I'm not conservative. I'm a right-winger and proud of it."

The Great Manipulator is, by most accounts, once again in regular and amicable communication with the president. But Bannon has no illusions. If Democrats gain control of the House in a couple of weeks, the "Age of MAGA" is in jeopardy. On his podcast he announced, "If we lose the House, it's going to turn the White House into Fort Apache."

Bannon told us what he sees as the repercussions of a Democratic victory: "I think you'll see Bobby Kennedy impeached, I'll think you see Pete Hegseth impeached. I think you'll see subpoenas flying every day. They will look to destroy President Trump, and we'll be bogged down for two years."

He believes that is a compelling argument to vote Republican this year – though polls show it may not be so compelling to the majority of American voters. "But you don't need the majority," Bannon argues. "Here's my point on the midterm: Remember, midterm elections are always driven by base getting out, and the base's ability to get more of their low-propensity voters out."

Bannon has few, if any, illusions about the agenda of old-line Republicans who are "all set for getting beyond Trump." But he disagrees that his own future lies beyond Trumpism. "First off, President Trump, I would say I'm the leader of trying to get President Trump to run for a third term," Bannon said. "It appears that he's not interested or it just won't happen."

He does not admit that the idea of a third term for Mr. Trump runs counter to the 22nd Amendment of the Constitution limiting a president to two terms. "Oh, I think you could drive a truck through that amendment," he said. "I talked to constitutional lawyers, and there were, I think, a number of different alternatives. Would it be contested? Yeah, it'd be contested, because everything [Trump] does is contested in the courts."

The war with Iran

The president is also confronting the same nemesis as his predecessor: old age. But Bannon does not see President Trump, who turned 80 this year, as having lost a step or two. "Oh, I don't agree with that," he said, claiming that the president works 20 hours a day. Nor does he dismiss the president's rambling speeches (such as his recent suggestion that Iran "take out" Los Angeles or San Diego).

"I would not call them 'drivel,'" Bannon said. "President Trump has been known to go off-script."

Any suggestion that Americans are embarrassed by Mr. Trump leads Bannon to draw accusations of media bias. "Ted, if you're part of the media elite, if you're a part of the East Coast elite, if you a Atlanticist, what President Trump has done, yes, you're not going to like it and probably you're going to hate it," he said. "I understand this war is a huge issue. But I think working-class Americans are not embarrassed. They're supportive of President Trump and how he presents the United States."

Despite polls that show a majority of Americans oppose the war with Iran, Bannon said, "Let's bifurcate the war. If you look at the first part, the 12-day war, and President Trump, the total obliteration of their nuclear program …"

Interrupted with the knowledge that Iran's nuclear capabilities have not been "totally" obliterated, Bannon replied, "I believe it's obliterated enough. What we're doing is tearing down their economy through economic warfare of Scott Bessant, given what he's doing with their currency, given the blockade on the oil."

The power of film

Interviewing Steve Bannon still offers the occasional surprise. If the Democratic Socialists sometimes offer positions that make more traditional Democratic candidate wince, count on Bannon to find hidden advantage for Republicans, while seeming to praise the opposition. "These people are very focused," he said. "Some of the candidates may stay way outside the mainstream, but they have a ground game that people have to understand that they have dedicated people and they're going to turn out their vote." 

Bannon reminded me that he got into politics making films for the Tea Party: "I had a very particular take on it," he said. "It was very populist, very nationalistic. Critics came and said, 'Hey, this is fascist filmmaking.' And I said, 'Look, Leni Riefenstahl was one of the most powerful filmmakers ever.'"

Indeed, she was. Riefenstahl made the Nazis look mythical. Her coverage of military parades and the Berlin Olympics of 1936, in films such as "Triumph of the Will," has influenced filmmakers for decades, among them Bannon. In Alison Klayman's 2019 documentary "The Brink," Bannon was heard asking, "What would Leni Riefenstahl do? How would Leni cut that scene?

But most of all, Riefenstahl was known as Hitler's image-maker. "She was amoral, and she was a filmmaker for the Nazis, but her films were very powerful," said Bannon. "And what I was trying to do is to try to recreate the power of those films to make sure that people, particularly the little guy, understood that they could have a voice."

Over the past nine years Steve Bannon has cultivated ties with far-right movements across Europe. In March 2018, he spoke before the French National Front party's annual congress, telling Marine Le Pen and her followers, "You're part of a worldwide movement that is bigger than France, bigger than Italy, bigger than Hungary, bigger than all of it."

He is also close to Germany's fiercely anti-immigrant party, the AfD, which recently won a state election in a landslide. "Alternative for Deutschland is now here to teach us," he said. "They went to ground, and what they did is they went door-to-door, and they convinced people with no campaign money, that our way, our policies is to re-industrialize Germany, stop this mass immigration, re-migration, are policies you should vote for. I think we can learn a lot from them.

A question of fascism

Asked if the United States is moving toward fascism today, Bannon replied, "It's not fascism. It's actually more inclusionary, it's more entrepreneurial. It's not fascism at all. Remember if you go back, we win at the ballot box. The MAGA movement has only lost the Pelosi election of '18. The core belief of the MAGA movement is we won the 2020 election."

Except President Trump lost the 2020 election. "That's not true. We won!" Bannon exclaimed.

Actually, Joe Biden won. "It's not true," Bannon contested.

When faced with more than 60 court cases, all of which Mr. Trump lost while alleging election fraud, Bannon replied, "We can go debate this another time, but we didn't have standing. We never even got into court."

Bannon's technically correct; they didn't have standing. They couldn't find a judge who thought they had a significant case worth hearing. So, for six years they've just kept saying the same thing over and over.

But with the midterms upon us, Bannon was asked how he would bet on the outcome. "I would push all our chips in the middle of the table and say, 'Guys, there's no retreat, and there's no substitute for victory. Let's fight like hell,'" he said.

Is he suggesting that Republicans can't afford to lose? "Oh, we can't afford to lose. I don't think there's any doubt about that," he said – affirming that he will do whatever it takes to win the fight. "Exactly."

WEB EXCLUSIVE: Watch an extended interview with Steve Bannon (Video)

     
Story produced by Dustin Stephens. Editor: Ed Givnish.