Pat Robertson Part 2

This is the second part of an interview with Pat Robertson conducted by Correspondent Rita Braver for CBS News Sunday Morning, broadcast April 9, 2006.

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I mean I-- I was-- it was like I was convalescing from a serious illness. It took me six or seven months to recover. I mean it-- it was-- it was awful.
RB:
The plan being that you would form the Christian Coalition and get more Christians involved--
PR:
Yeah.
RB:
--in-- in that way. Is that--
PR:
Well--
RB:
--what you mean?
PR:
--and for the first time, I-- we really had gotten the people out of the pews and into public arena. Up to that time, politics was sort of dirty. People didn't-- Christians didn't think they should dirty their hands with this-- this unclean (LAUGHTER) activity. And I-- I said to them, "Politics is an important part of our life. We should be involved in public life."
RB:
You-- you know, you-- you mentioned there's an evangelical Christian in the White House now. How-- what's your view of how President Bush is doing, particularly regarding the war?
PR:
I had great misgivings about-- the war when it was being you know, talked about. I felt something deep in my heart that there was something wrong. And-- I-- I felt the Lord saying, hey, it was going to be bloody. It was going to be messy. And it was going to be a disaster.

And unfortunately, I did not communicate that last part to the President, as if I'd been a faithful servant I would've. And I didn't. But once the troops were mobilized, once the army's in the field, and as a patriotic American, I had to support the-- we have to support the-- the troops.
RB:
Of course you have to support the troops.
PR:
Yeah.
RB:
But do you wish this-- as a war, do you-- do you think that this was a war that-- it was right to-- to wage? Do you think that the United States' goals are being achieved-- terrorism is being stopped because of this war?
PR:
It-- still has to play out. It may play out successfully. But-- I-- I think that-- dealing overseas in-- in those countries-- we're a bit naive. You know, the Brits had a way of-- running an empire. And I don't think America is comfortable with an empire.

We never have been. We-- we don't have foreign (LAUGHTER) ambitions. And-- and I don't think nation building is exactly where our skill set lies. And-- and I-- I'm-- right now it's-- on the ledger, I think it's more negative than positive. But we'll-- we'll see.

I mean it could work out something-- really wonderfully. But so far-- we have stirred up-- r-- religious passions-- in Iraq. I mean after all, there never has been-- a-- a-- a-- an Iraq except a little-- fuse (SIC)-- decades. It was known as Mesopotamia. It was-- you're tramped all over by conquerors for centuries. And I don't think the-- Sunnis and the Shias (PH) and the Kurds have any sense of-- national identity. I-- I really don't think so. So-- the chance of that country sh-- shattering is-- is-- is-- is pretty high.
RB:
You-- you were talking a little bit also-- and something I was thinking about-- about the next election. And-- it-- you know you-- you mentioned that you thought that there were some governors out there that you thought would be pretty good. Have you sorta said, "Okay, I-- I like this guy. I keeping my eye on this man or woman. (LAUGHTER) That's who I'm gonna back"?
PR:
Well-- my-- my philosophy is-- you know I've run a few enterprises and I've (UNINTEL) in that league. But nevertheless, I've also been head of a big-- of a fairly good sized corporate company. The United States government is a huge enterprise-- 2.6 personnel-- 2.7, $2.8 trillion budget. It's huge.
RB:
So you like the idea of a governor--
(OVERTALK)
PR:
A-- a governor--
RB:
--or--
PR:
--or-- or--
RB:
--I just wonder if there is somebody--
PR:
--a-- a mayor--
RB:
--that you like. Is there-- is there somebody?
PR:
Well of course-- our buddy Arnold can't run, so (LAUGHTER) I'm pretty (UNINTEL PHRASE). Jeb Bush would be tremendous governor of Florida, but we can't have a dynasty so he's out of our (UNINTEL). The one that-- is closer to it is-- probably George Allen (PH), who's a former governor of Virginia and now a senator.

He has the qualifications and-- and the folks he-- (UNINTEL)-- he-- he'd play well on the campaign trail in that one on one (UNINTEL) politics. Rudy Giuliani-- I don't share some of his social point of view, but Rudy is a tremendous leader. And he-- he ran a big city. So I think in terms of just competency for Presidency, he'd be a good one.
RB:
A-- a lot of people are saying that John McCain could win election if he could get the Republican nomination. Could-- could you support John McCain?
PR:
(UNINTEL PHRASE) uncomfortable.
RB:
Really?
PR:
I really-- yeah, I really do. I-- I-- I-- I just think that-- well-- if I thought that his finger was on a nuclear trigger, I-- I-- I don't know where in this world I would be (LAUGHTER) able to hide. But I-- I'd wanna go someplace.
RB:
You think he just doesn't have the temperament.
PR:
I'm afraid.
RB:
On the Democratic side, of course, everybody's talking about Hillary Clinton. What-- what would you and your followers think about her?
PR:
Well she's-- tacking to the right as hard as she can tack. And-- you know Hillary's got some good points. But-- I don't think somebody that has negatives that's almost up to 50 percent could ever win an election. You know it's just-- she-- she carries a lot of baggage.

And who knows-- whether-- Bill will have what's called a (UNINTEL) eruption somewhere (LAUGHTER) on the campaign trail and sabotage her-- her-- her chances. You never know what might happen. Oh, I'd tell you the guy that-- is extraordinary attractive right now-- and I'm not picking the Democratic candidate-- but it's the former governor of Virginia, Mark Warner (PH).

He is a businessman. He-- he appeals to the conservatives. He ran a pretty-- a fiscally prudent state here in Virginia. And I-- I-- he-- he could be a-- a-- a candidate the Democrats would do well to look to. I don't know who else they've got. I-- but that's-- that's one.
RB:
You talked about the fact that you had brought a lot of Christians into-- voting. And there's some sense now that a lot of people in the religious world are very disillusioned about what's going on in Congress, and particularly on the Republican side. Do you worry that the Republicans could lose control in the House and Senate in this next election?
PR:
The thought about Republicans is, we're supposed to be Jeffersonian. That government governs the best that governs the least. And we're talking about-- improvident spending that-- just boggles the imagination. There's been no control whatsoever.

And I think that that spending has turned off a lot of conservatives-- you know, Christians and otherwise. It's just outta control. Some of the legislation is simply appalling.
RB:
You think those folks will decide to go Democrat? Or do you think they'll just stay home?
PR:
Probably s-- stay home. I-- I-- they-- they don't have to vote Democrat. But it's the same thing. I mean it-- it'll-- the-- the margin is so close in this country. But you know there was a poll that I reported on today, that people feel-- better in their own personal life than they were four years ago.

So it may be they won't hold it against Congress. Part-- plus these-- they've gerrymandered those districts. And-- it's just very hard for an incumbent to get beat. So-- it'll take a lot of beating for the Democrat-- (LAUGHTER) I mean Republicans to leave-- to lose the House of Representatives.
RB:
So I've been getting your-- your-- you know views on politics. But I wanna come back to a little bit-- you-- you know that over the course-- particularly maybe the year or so-- you've made a lot of statements that people consider very controversial.
PR:
Mmmm (PH).
RB:
Mmmm. Why? Why do you do it?
PR:
Well-- really, if I said-- yellow and blue equals green, that's a fairly reasonable statement. But if somebody took that and said, "Pat Robertson said blue and green are the same thing, isn't he stupid," that of course I'd guess to be controversial. And that's happened to me on a number of occasions.

The-- the things that preceded-- you see I comment on-- news reports that are very well done by our reporters. And I give an editorial comment. And as I told you earlier, I've (UNINTEL) maybe about 8000, (LAUGHTER) or so I-- the chances for danger are very strong. But-- if somebody separates my remarks from the news report that preceded it in which I'm commenting on, of course you take that outta context it can be-- very (UNINTEL).
RB:
But just for example, you recently seemed to call for the assassination of the President of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez (PH). And-- you said-- "If he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, we oughta go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war."
PR:
Well he's the one that said it. He said, "The United States is trying to assassinate me."
RB:
And you said, "We oughta go ahead and do it."
PR:
Well why don't we go ahead and do it? You see-- what I'm trying to do is stimulate debate. I am also a college-- president. And I-- I stimulate thought. I'm trying to get people to-- to debate. So somebody else will say, "Don't be silly. As a Presidential order, you can't assassinate people."

Well that would mean the Presidential order would have to be-- (UNINTEL). And-- I don't make public policy. But in a sense I'm saying, "Okay. Let's talk about it. Let's have a debate. And-- do you think that this man is dangerous down there?"

But my main thought when I was saying that had to do with Saddam Hussein. We are spending $200 billion on a war. And I woulda been a whole lot cheaper if somehow we had had a covert operation to remove Saddam from power without invading his country and killing all these people.
RB:
And would you have said assassinate him, too, rather than--
PR:
Well--
RB:
--having him stand trial as he is?
PR:
--Stephanopoulos said that. Freedman (PH) said it. Sam Donaldson said it. A whole group of people said it on-- on-- one-- ABC program. It was-- it was-- it just makes some sense-- that-- this man is a tyrant. What about Adolph Hitler? Fifty million people died because of Hitler. And wouldn't we have been better somewhere along the way to have dispatched Hitler instead of going to war with Germany and having all these people die?
RB:
I-- I have one question, 'cause it's-- it sounded like when I read later reports that you kind of apologized--
PR:
I did.
RB:
--for saying that we should assassinate President Chavez. Now it sounds like you're saying that you're not really apologizing.
PR:
Well I apologized because I thought it was (UNINTEL)-- and I wrote him a letter, actually-- apologized. And I mentioned that, "I'll pray for you." But he went on and he's continued to say the most outrageous things. It gets worse and worse.

We-- one day-- we're gonna be facing a-- a nuclear armed Venezuela. And (UNINTEL)-- what comes across the Gulf will not be a hurricane. It's going to be nuclear arms from him. And--
RB:
So you'd like to see the CIA take him out?
PR:
Well I-- I-- I-- shouldn't say that anymore. People say that's not (LAUGHTER) (UNINTEL) for a man of the cloth to w-- knock off somebody. But I-- I just-- I-- I-- one day we're going to be faced with a dilemma, a-- a policy dilemma that the next President's going to have to grapple with in dealing with Venezuela.

And he is going to make trouble for us. He's trying to turn all of Latin America against us. And we're gonna be faced with something that may require military action.
RB:
You know I'm just gonna ask you about one more, 'cause there are too-- there are too many for me to--
PR:
Oh-- oh-- I know--
RB:
--ask you about all of them.
PR:
--don't even think about it. Yes.
RB:
But-- there was one-- at one point where you seemed to suggest that-- Hurricane Katrina and September 11th, the terrorist attacks, were divine retribution for abortion--
PR:
Oh, I'll stop you on that one. There was Comedy Central that came out with a-- a-- a-- a-- a spoof saying Pat Robertson said Katrina was-- was-- divine retribution. And then the press picked it up. And Comedy Central said, "Hey fellas, we were just joking." I never said that.
RB:
So you never said that--
(OVERTALK)
PR:
--I did--
RB:
--so this idea that you said-- that this-- that this was retribution for abortion-- that--
PR:
I never said it.
RB:
--never said it?
PR:
Never said it. Never considered it. All I've done with the hurricane victims-- I've been to the Gulf many times. We were bringing millions of pounds of food down there-- establishing a clinic. We do everything we can to help rebuild houses. And I've never talked about divine retribution. But it was Comedy Central.
RB:
How about the one in two oh frive (SIC) when-- how about the one in 2005 where you're alleged to have said that federal judges pose quote, "a more serious threat than a few bearded terrorists who slammed into the World Trade Center." Did you say that one?
PR:
That was Stephanopoulos-- ABC's program--
RB:
You were-- you were on a news program--
PR:
--with George Stephanopoulos. They're pushing me, pushing me, pushing me. But my statement was, "Over the next hundred years, the decisions of judges will have a more-- a-- a-- damaging effect than the action of a few beards-- terrorists." And I really believe that.

I mean the actions of the federal judges over the hundred years will have a much more deleterious effect on our nation than a few crazy terrorists will. I mean the terrorists are-- are like a pimple, like a boil. They'll go away. But I'm not sure that some of the decisions having to do with marriage, abortion, pornography, and so forth, are gonna do away that quickly.
RB:
So sometimes you say some of these things because you feel that you're in a-- the heat of a conversation. And other times it seems like you really wanna stir up a little talk.
PR:
I love it. (LAUGHTER) Why not? (LAUGHTER) That-- that's part of my charm is to have a little-- but you know-- you know I feel very passionate about some things. I guess you're not supposed to be. You're supposed to be just bland and like-- oatmeal.

But I believe in-- in-- in-- in getting excited about things that hurt people. I'm-- I'm concerned about tyranny. I'm concerned about-- the oppression of the poor. I-- I'm concerned about policy blunders. And I-- I don't believe that it's appropriate to-- you know not to speak out forcefully about them. And-- so why not?
RB:
Some of your fellow conservatives-- people who-- who like you and who supported you-- say that the kinds of statements that you're making are not particularly good for the movement and are not good for your image.
PR:
I-- had one of those learned gentleman. And I said, "Did you hear what I said actually?" And he said, "No." I said, "Could I read you what I had to say?" "Okay." He said, "I never heard that." I said, "Where'd you get your information?"

He-- he said, "Well off the AP report." I said, "The AP report wasn't what I said, was it?" He said, "No, it wasn't." But he blasted me anyhow. So you know it's-- it's a tough world we live in. So that-- that goes with the territory.
RB:
Do you feel like your-- your stature in the conservative world has dropped in the past few years?
PR:
I-- I don't really think about the stature in the conservative world. What I think about is, how effective can I be in leading people to the Lord and blessing people. And I-- you know I'm a-- pastor of a flock of a million people who watch my show every day, and maybe 18 billion in the course of a month.

Plus overseas, we talked to the 300 million people. And-- we've been successful in leading about 410 million people to faith in Jesus Christ since the fall of Communism. So-- am I doing success? I really think so. Because that's why I'm here. As far as what anybody else thinks about me, that really is immaterial.

RB:
Well, let me ask you about charm. I wanna ask you about charm, 'cause I-- I gotta tell you that-- you know, we're-- even when I see you on television and when I read about you, charming is not necessarily (LAUGHTER) the first thing that comes to mind. I mean, people don't usually think of you as being such a nice guy. Have you been maligned?
PR:
Well, I'm afraid so. I really am. I'm a-- I'm a-- a grandfather of 14 grandchildren. I-- I-- I love people. I've spent my life helping the poor, the needy. And-- anybody gets to know me, I'm a fairly easy to work with person. The people who work around me, worked for years. They-- they-- it's a right nice place to be.
RB:
Do you find that people often, when they meet you in person, are-- seem like a little bit surprised that you seem so charming, shall we say?
PR:
Not really. The people who-- who know me and watch my show-- you know, we love each other. And there's a-- there's a immediate bond. But in terms of-- I don't know the-- I guess the liberal press (LAUGHTER) or whatever, I guess they-- they're a little more surprised--
RB:
It's all the fault of the liberal press.
PR:
Yes, the liberal press. (LAUGHTER) It's the vast liberal conspiracy.
RB:
What about the conservatives who are saying things?
PR:
Well, they-- they-- they-- I have been one of their champions. But, you know-- I-- it's hard to say. The cross-currents of this country with all the blogs and all the yak-yak talk shows. And it's just constant stream of-- information. And some of it can be-- misinterpreted. It's just the way it is. So--
RB:
Well, you were talking about the changes in the country. And you-- you've been pretty tough sometimes on-- on your worries about the moral climate in this country. You know, if you look at our world today, what worries you the most about the moral climate?
PR:
Well-- a great nation will never fall-- from-- without. It'll always fall from within. The Roman Empire wasn't overrun by barbarians until they got to be a hollow shell. The United States' greatness-- (UNINTEL PHRASE) is our religious faith. And if you we lose our religious faith, this political correction that is eating up at our universities is just terrible.

We've lost the ability to speak. We've lost the ability to express points of view contrary to the prevailing-- elites. And-- it's dangerous. It is a very dangerous thing that we have allowed to happen in our country. But we've got this-- sort of dichotomy. We-- on the one hand, you have this incredible religious revival going on in this country and around the world. The rise of Christianity around the world is one of the greatest phenomenon that has ever happened in any century in history. It's unbelievable.

Yet, at the same time, in this country-- we have so many porn sites, I've lost count of them. It's-- it's in the millions. (LAUGHTER) And the vilest type of thing is coming out. We did a piece today on-- child porn. They say it may be a $24 billion business. We spend almost as much on kiddie porn as we spend on groceries. So what is it that's going on? On the one hand, a religious revival. On the other hand, this kind of thing. So it-- it worries me that if we-- continue to chip away at our verities that have held this country together-- we used to have a consensus. We-- we didn't always keep with these things. We're-- but be believe in a biblically-based-- order. And we don't believe in that anymore.
RB:
Do you believe that this country needs to consider itself a Christian country? You think that's part of the idea?
PR:
Well, it-- it always was.
RB:
It always was? Or was it just--
PR:
Now-- well, we're not--
(OVERTALK)
RB:
--a free country?
PR:
No, the Supreme Court, 1892, the trustees at Trinity College-- not Trinity College. But the Trinity Trustees case, the Supreme Court said, quote, We are a Christian nation. That was Supreme Court-- it was dicta, but it was in there.
RB:
But later they came and said there's gotta be a serious separation between church and state.
PR:
Yeah, I know. And--
RB:
You know-- I know.
(OVERTALK)
PR:
I've lived through that. Every versus board of education, whatever. But in any event-- we have eroded the consensus. But we used to be a-- a Christian nation. And we had some virtues that reflected that. But now I don't know. It's hard to say.
RB:
You know, I-- you always talk about how Christians-- if you accept Christ into your heart, you'll have a better life. And you'll have a better after-life as well. Do you-- do you think if you are a non-believer-- but you live an exemplar-- exemplary life that you can still get into heaven? That God will still greet you with open arms?
PR:
Well, that's not what the Bible teaches. And-- I'm a messenger. I can't-- like Western Union, I don't-- changing my telegrams. (LAUGHTER) I have-- I have to do what the Bible says. And it says-- you know, apart from him there's no salvation. The Apostle Peter said-- this salvation and no other. And so I do believe that the thought is we've all sinned and come short of the glory of God. And there's one-- salvation from that sin, and that is the-- the death of Jesus. And so--
RB:
So that means if-- if you're Jewish or you're-- if you're Islamic, that it's a pretty bleak picture for you?
PR:
Well, I've said to-- to the Jews, I mean, it's clear, you know? The Bible says if you keep the-- Torah, you keep the commandments, and if you offer sacrifice-- you know, before the high priest-- in the temple once a year on-- Yom Kippur-- your sins are covered. That's-- that's what the Bible, the Old Testament says. That was the way they did it then.

But I-- I believe that the time will come when the Jewish people-- are brought in. The Bible says that all Israel will be saved. It doesn't say necessarily now. But it says all Israel will be saved.
RB:
So eventually Jewish people will see the light and become Christians?
PR:
Well, they won't become Christians. They're gonna become Jews. I mean, this-- (LAUGHTER)
RB:
Meaning what? Meaning what? But-- but seeing the light, you mean embracing Christ.
PR:
Well, they will look at-- well, Christ means-- you know, Christos (PH) is anointed. Anointed means messiah. They will realize their messiah who is their deliverer. And-- and the-- but the--
RB:
Has-- has come instead of waiting for him, which is what they're doing now.
PR:
Yeah. Larry King said, you know, "Hey, do you"-- he sees God (UNINTEL) you have a (UNINTEL) number one to become one-- twice or is he gonna come back a third time? I-- I believe that Israel is gonna come to the Lord in a wonderful way. And I think it's going to be a-- an extraordinary event when it does happen.
RB:
Gonna be a lot of Jewish people surprised to hear that. Can-- can you be a good person-- and not be a Christian or maybe not even believe in a supreme being?
PR:
Oh, I think-- it depends on what the term "good person" is. Sure, you can be good. You can be a good person. But the trouble is, inside of us-- there is something that-- doesn't want to obey the commands of God. And really deep inside, it has a hard time dealing with some of the stresses of life. So-- but if-- in terms of the-- the-- public definition of the word, can you be a good person, most people in this audience that are watching this program right now will say, "I am a good person." You know, everybody says that. So can you be a good person? They all say, "Yeah, I'm a good person."
RB:
In-- in your case, you-- you say, you know, "I-- look, I've said some things, I've done some things, I've made mistakes for a while." But do you-- do you ever worry that, you know, maybe you get there face to face with whoever's in charge and he says, "Pat, you know, I wish you had been a little bit more open about who you thought would be included in my world"?
PR:
When somebody like me has had an organization that's led over 400 million people to faith in Jesus Christ, I don't think-- the one that I'm bringing them to is gonna get mad at me for not bringing a few more in. (LAUGHTER) But my goal is 500 million.
RB:
I-- I didn't mean it that way. I-- I meant it more like-- did he ever think that maybe-- do you ever worry that you hurt people by telling them that they're really not going to-- to have peace and love and light in their lives unless they accept Jesus?
PR:
I don't tell it to them that way. I say--
RB:
It sure sounds like something, from everything you've read-- that if you--
PR:
I say--
RB:
--that the way to-- to-- the path is this one.
PR:
As I say, I'm a messenger. I can't change the message. The message was ordained. If you believe that the Bible is God's word, which I do. Two thousand years of writing, it points to one conclusion-- that mankind fell away from God in the Garden of Eden, and that he himself has been preparing a way so that they can come back.

And so what I tell people is God loves you. I said it today. God loves you. You're the prodigal son. God says, "Come home. I've got a home for you. I wanna put my arms around you. I love you. I-- I-- I gave myself for you. I want to bring you into heaven with me and you be part of my family." That's not exactly a bad message. That's a message of hope. That's why it's called good news. Gospel is good news. And I-- I just talk about good news, not bad news.
RB:
You know, I just really have one more question here. We're gonna walk around and see some of CBM. But-- you're 76 years old.
PR:
Yeah.
RB:
Before I came here-- I read one writer described you as being in the twilight of your career. But now that I've met you, I don't really think so.
PR:
(LAUGHTER) Thank you, Rita. God bless you. Tell my wife.
RB:
But what do you think of as what you'd like your-- legacy to be?
PR:
Oh, I would like it to be somebody who-- served God and served his-- served mankind, who loved people, and-- gave himself to make this a better world. That's what I'd like to-- like to think.
RB:
And-- and in-- in all seriousness, I mean, do-- looking back and saying, "Well, you know, I'm-- I'm getting up there a little bit," do you see this as sort of the twilight of your career? Or-- or do you just feel like, "I'm-- I'm going a thousand miles an hour right now"?
PR:
I do. I'm busting iron in the weight room. I don't feel like it's the twilight of anything. (LAUGHTER) I think-- for some reason, I don't think old, I don't act old, and-- I've got a lot ahead of me. I'm a head of a wonderful university that is growing by leaps and bounds. And-- our students are-- making national-- a name for themselves.

One of my students was Miss America even. I mean, I've got-- they're-- they're not only brainy, but they're beautiful. And-- I-- I've got the ministry. We are-- we are 200 countries reaching for people and-- and-- our-- Operation Blessing. We are feeding-- people by the millions. We-- we're hauling about 120 million pounds of food into the inner cities to help the poor.

You know, I have medical missions going out where people are getting hospital help. I mean, it's a great satisfaction to think you can do that. So I-- I-- I can-- I guess there are a few accomplishments that I can look forward to. But there are a few more years to go.
RB:
Yeah, we'll be back for your hundredth birthday. (LAUGHTER)
PR:
Well, at least the 80th. Hang around for that. (LAUGHTER)