Transcript: Rep. Michael McCaul on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Feb. 9, 2025
The following is the transcript of an interview with Rep. Michael McCaul, Republican of Texas, on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" that aired on Feb. 9, 2025.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we turn now to Republican Congressman Mike McCaul of Texas. Good morning. It's good to have you here.
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL: Good morning, Margaret. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to dig into what has been happening, this mass confusion with USAID. There were 30 million metric tons of food sitting at a port in Houston all week because there weren't US workers to unload the food aid, food American taxpayers had already bought. Food that Secretary Rubio said should be delivered, but wasn't. How is this mass confusion increasing efficiency?
REP. MCCAUL: Well, if I could peel back on that a little bit, the- the confusion, I think, goes back to the Biden administration when they started to implement these woke policies of drag queen shows in Ecuador, when they started talking about LGBTQIA programs like, say, in Latin American countries, how to sue Catholic governments, promoting atheism in Nepal, where you have Tibetan Buddhist monks--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --I saw the- I saw the White House Fact Sheet on this, but this--
REP. MCCAUL: --but this- this is- this is what gave the- USAID a black eye. I personally believe that USAID has a national security mission. If you go back to its inception in the '60s under President Kennedy and the Cold War, it was to counter the Soviet Union. We need to return to the core mission principles.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. Well, you have been a big supporter of USAID. When you're chairman of House Foreign Affairs, you've talked about the great work that it does around the world. But back to this food aid. I mean, this isn't a- a theater program. This is food for starving people. How is getting it all locked up in these ports- I mean, it's the way it's being implemented that has drawn so much shock here. Do you think this is being done well?
REP. MCCAUL: Well, I think- so the Secretary, in response to all this, and by the way, I put holds on all those programs I was talking about, had nothing to do with the central core mission. However, the Secretary made waivers on humanitarian assistance in PEPFAR, which has been the most successful global health program, initiated by President Bush, by the way. The implementation of this is where I would urge the administration to move more expeditiously. I just got word about 10 minutes ago that the World Food Program now, these waivers are now being implemented, that it is being executed, that food will be going out. But to your point, about $40 million in food rotting in these warehouses in Houston, about 500,000 metric tons on ships, you know, on the sea. The peace through food program dates back to the '50s, after the Marshall Plan. It is to provide stability in- in fragile, unstable countries. It is to counter Russia, China, and terrorism. It is our diplomatic power. Otherwise, we're talking about bullets, as Mattis talked about, and Lindsey Graham.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, if you don't fully fund the State Department, you got to buy me more bullets--
REP. MCCAUL: Cool.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --that's Mattis's line. But on how this is being done, Secretary of State Rubio keeps saying he's issuing waivers and he's getting things moving. I'm glad the World Food Program now says food is moving, but there's a huge divide between what he's saying and then the fact that there weren't USAID workers there to actually load ships or move things. There weren't folks to process. It seems a fundamental misunderstanding between the bosses and the operators. Is this really how it should be done? Why not review and then take action?
REP. MCCAUL: And there's a debate about whether you should, you know- there is a top to bottom review. I think, after what happened under the Biden administration, it absolutely needs to be reviewed to get back to the core mission, as I talked about. So that is being done. At the same time putting a halt on all humanitarian assistance and life saving medicines, I think that's where- Secretary Rubio issued these waivers for a reason, in consultation with the president, President Trump, and it seems to me, his department needs to start implementing the waivers. Now again, the World Food Program--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, people have to be able to go back to work. I mean, that was before the courts said people could even go back to work to implement what he's telling them to do.
REP. MCCAUL: And there is a temporary injunction on that issue. I would urge the State Department to put the adequate resources necessary to deliver this, because our foreign adversaries are looking at this, just as they laughed at the Ecuador drag shows. They're also questioning what's happening now. And I think we need to have a strong presence in destabilized nations to keep out our adversaries.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But do you think this was done intentionally, or are- are people like this individual, Pete Marocco, who Secretary Rubio has authorized to run this, do they just not know how the department works? Or how USAID--
REP. MCCAUL: I really can't speak for him, I know that he's been in charge- put in charge of the Foreign Assistance Program--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Will you bring him into Congress and answer questions since there's a hearing on USAID this week?
REP. MCCAUL: Well, I- I do think- the administration has provided, by the way, notification and consultation with the Foreign Affairs committee that I chaired, and that is required, under law. They have done that. I think if they decide to terminate, that's a whole nother issue. My understanding is that they want to look at putting USAID underneath the State Department, which is not a novel concept--
MARGARET BRENNAN: No.
REP. MCCAUL: --Madeleine Albright talked about this under--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REP. MCCAUL: --you know, and Bill Clinton and Warren Christopher talked about this, even Joe Biden talked about this. I think putting it under State makes a lot of sense to me, to provide the direct supervision and oversight.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you know how this department works, since you were the chair for so long, of the committee overseeing it. When this Trump-appointed judge put that federal- the pause on the putting USAID workers on leave, he wrote in the opinion, "no future lawsuit could undo the physical harm that might result if USAID employees are not informed of imminent security threats occurring in the countries to which they've relocated in the course of their service to the United States." He's saying that the messy way this rolled out put people in physical risk when they are deployed by our government to countries over sea. Did the Secretary of State have any idea?
REP. MCCAUL: Secretary of State issued the waivers for PEPFAR and for humanitarian, both food and medicine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But people living and- and working, in places like Syria, aren't able to access computer systems and security warnings that are there.
REP. MCCAUL: The- you know, every- every president that comes in does a review. I would argue, though, that since the Secretary has issued the waivers, it's incumbent upon his subordinates now to implement these waivers so that we don't see what could happen, where people are not getting their vaccines, they're not getting the HIV treatment, they're starving people in destabilized countries. And then we see China and Russia, and, quite frankly, Lindsey Graham and I did the Global Fragility Act to impact the Sahel in Africa. That is turning into a terror safe haven. You got Ebola popping up in Uganda. These are serious issues that, if we don't start implementing the waivers, you're going to see it get worse, not better, and I would urge the administration to do that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're striking a very different tone than- than Congressman Brian Mast who was here last week, and he said there's a grift on the American people. He said PEPFAR and Americans shouldn't fund AIDS drugs for 20 million people across Africa because their governments might work with China.
REP. MCCAUL: It's the best--
MARGARET BRENNAN: There's a divide in your party about this right now.
REP. MCCAUL: Well, it's the best- I can always speak to the program that President Bush started, and it was to save millions of lives. That is probably one of the- been the best goodwill missions the United States- and put the best face, no pun intended, on the nation, overseas, with our adversaries, countering them, with these people. We're saving their lives. The best global health program ever implemented by the United States was PEPFAR. I'd hate to see that go away. It will sunset once we achieve the mission. However, programs like that, when you look at the National Security importance of USAID, need to be maintained. And I go back to why it was implemented in the first place.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On Friday night, the President ordered all foreign assistance to South Africa be halted and said, we should prioritize the resettling of Afrikaner refugees. These are white South Africans. That means they will get priority over everyone, it seems, because there's a suspension of refugee entry into the United States, including those Afghan allies who worked along the United- alongside the United States. Are you going to try to help lift that?
REP. MCCAUL: Yeah. I believe- you know, I did a comprehensive investigation that- the debacle of Afghanistan that the Biden administration was responsible for, including leaving our Afghan partners behind. Those--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Should they get a carve out from the Trump ban on refugees? Should the Afghans?
REP. MCCAUL: And I do believe that it was an unintended consequence that needs to be fixed. Look, we promised them we would protect them when they worked with our servicemen and women in Afghanistan. These are the interpreters, the ones who are right alongside our combat veterans. They have these special immigrant visas and P1, P2 and it's my- my view, that they should be allowed to go forward with the SIV program. And they have been vetted, by the way, Margaret, they have been vetted. Unlike some of the other groups they talked about, these have been vetted. They worked with our troops to defeat the Taliban, which unfortunately, Biden surrendered to. But it seems to me, we ought to live up to our word, otherwise down the road in another conflict, no one's going to trust us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Congressman McCaul, thank you.
REP. MCCAUL: Thanks, Margaret.
