Full transcript of "Face the Nation" on June 7, 2020
On this "Face the Nation" broadcast moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- William Barr, Attorney General
- Condoleezza Rice, Former Secretary of State
- Dr. Scott Gottlieb, Former FDA Commissioner
Click here to browse full transcripts of "Face the Nation."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington. This week on FACE THE NATION, as Americans push to mend the racial divide, conflict continues between the public and our leaders on how to get there. We'll speak exclusively with Attorney General William Barr and former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. From Washington to Philadelphia, and Chicago to San Francisco, Saturday saw the largest demonstrations of support, yet, for cracking down on police brutality and ending racism following the death of George Floyd.
MAN: Hands up.
CROWD (in unison): Don't shoot.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The overwhelming majority of the protests were peaceful and the message was pointed. Americans have had enough of scenes like the death of George Floyd. And this incident from Buffalo where police officers have been charged with a felony after knocking a seventy-five-year-old man to the ground and leaving in there. When and how will this end? In cities like Minneapolis, they've moved to ban the use of knee-to-neck hold, but some Americans are clamoring for more action.
WOMAN: A yes or a no? Will you defund the Minneapolis Police Department?
MARGARET BRENNAN: President Trump's answer to the problem is law and order from local law enforcement, the National Guard, or even the military.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: You have to dominate the streets. You can't let what's happening happen.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll talk to the President's attorney general, William Barr. Plus, the problems within our society. Despite a lower-than-anticipated jobless rate for May, the number of unemployed African-Americans increased to almost seventeen percent. How do we level the playing field? Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will join us. Finally, a look at the potential impact of the not so socially distance protest with former FDA Commissioner Doctor Scott Gottlieb.
It's all just ahead on FACE THE NATION.
Good morning and welcome to FACE THE NATION. Across the country, there is a collective sigh of relief following a day and night in which the vast majority of protests were peaceful, but America's widening racial divide on top of the nation's economic and medical crisis is painful. Political commentator Bakari Sellers may have put it best when he told our CBS THIS MORNING colleagues, this is like 1918 meets 1968. You have a great pandemic and you have a country that is teetering on edge. With that we begin with Kris Van Cleave. He has been covering the protests in the streets of the nation's capital since they began.
KRIS VAN CLEAVE (CBS News Transportation Correspondent/@krisvancleave): Margaret, good morning. A week ago this fencing wasn't here. It is separating where the protests have been from the White House and has become a bit of a mural. Now early this morning we want to show you some video, DC's Mayor Muriel Bowser and congressman and civil rights leader John Lewis came out here as people were cleaning up from the rally yesterday. The congressman called the protests moving and impressive.
(Begin VT)
CROWD (in unison): George Floyd.
KRIS VAN CLEAVE: Washington, DC, besieged by peaceful protests. Huge crowds marched from the Capitol and the Lincoln Memorial flooding the streets outside the White House, unified in the message painted on the road below their feet, Black Lives Matter.
WOMAN: We just want justice. We just want to stop being killed.
KRIS VAN CLEAVE: Protests nationally were large and generally peaceful, but it remained tense in Portland, Oregon. After police gave orders to disperse overnight officers were seen forcing people back with batons. And flash bangs were used to disperse a crowd in Seattle. It's been a week that's torn at the fabric of our nation. The death of George Floyd at the hands of police sparked nights of violence across the country. CBS News has learned Monday morning, President Trump demanded ten thousand active duty troops be deployed to major cities. Defense Secretary Mark Esper and Attorney General Bill Barr pushed back in a heated Oval Office meeting. Hours later this moment as police in riot gear moved peaceful protesters for a presidential photo op.
7:00 PM, Saturday, and what a difference a week makes, gone are the officers in riot gear replaced by a sea of peaceful demonstrators with a serious message, they say they are not leaving until they're heard.
We met the Gebra (ph) family near the White House. It was eleven-year-old Ezanah's (ph) idea to come.
EZANAH: We need to bring attention to these black people dying for no reason.
KRIS VAN CLEAVE: And throughout this country, a difficult conversation about race even between protesters and police.
MAN #1: We're here to listen. We here, we're here to hear you out. And, you know, I absolutely commend what you're doing and--
MAN #2: I want more than for you all to hear me out. I want systemic change.
(End VT)
KRIS VAN CLEAVE: There's ten thousand active duty troops that President Trump wanted were never deployed, but thousands of National Guard from around the country were. DC's mayor is demanding they be sent home. Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Earlier this morning I went to the Justice Department to speak with Attorney General Bill Barr. In his role as the nation's top law enforcement officer, he used the full force of the federal government, including agents from the FBI, ATF, Border Patrol, Bureau of Prisons and the Drug Enforcement Administration to assist the National Guard and local police in an effort to end the violence and looting that happened earlier in the week in Washington. Sixteen hundred active-duty troops were also put on standby.
(Begin VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: A senior administration official told our CBS' David Martin, that in a meeting at the White House on Monday morning, the President demanded that ten thousand active-duty troops be ordered into American streets. Is that accurate?
WILLIAM BARR (U.S. Attorney General): No, that's completely false. That's completely false. Sunday night--
MARGARET BRENNAN: The President did not demand that?
WILLIAM BARR: No, he did not demand that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What happened?
WILLIAM BARR: I came over on-- on Monday morning for a meeting. The night before had been the most violent, as one of the police officials told us, the DC police, it was the most violent day in Washington in thirty years, something that the media has not done a very good job of covering. And there had been a-- a riot right along Lafayette Park. I was called over and asked if I would coordinate federal civil agencies and that the Defense Department would provide whatever support I needed or we needed to protect federal property federal-- at the White House, federal personnel. The decision was made to have at the ready and on hand in the vicinity some regular troops. But everyone agreed that the use of regular troops as a last resort and that as long as matters can be controlled with other resources, they should be. I felt, and the Secretary of Defense felt, we had adequate resources and wouldn't need to use federal troops. But in case we did we wanted them nearby.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So what--
WILLIAM BARR: There was never-- the President never asked or suggested that we needed to deploy regular troops at that point. It's been done from time to time in our history. We try to avoid it and I'm happy that we were able to avoid it on this occasion.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So there were active duty troops put on standby. They were not deployed. The 82nd Airborne was put on standby--
WILLIAM BARR: So the--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --but not sent into the streets.
WILLIAM BARR: Some 82nd Airborne military police were brought into the area. But they were not brought into DC.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. So what part-- I just want to make sure that we're precise here, what part of that conversation, as it's been relayed to CBS and to other news organizations, is false? Did the President not demand active duty troops? Did--
WILLIAM BARR: Well, your question to me just a moment ago was, did he demand them on the streets, did he demand them in DC? No, we had them on standby in case they were needed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. Which they were put on standby. They were not deployed.
WILLIAM BARR: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So in our reporting, we were also told that you, the Defense Secretary Mark Esper, and General Milley, all opposed the idea of actually deploying these active-duty troops onto the streets. Is that accurate?
WILLIAM BARR: I think our position was common, which was that they should only be-- be deployed if-- as a last resort and that we didn't think we would need them. Every-- I think everyone was on the same page.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think that the President has the authority to unilaterally send in active-duty troops if the governors oppose it?
WILLIAM BARR: Oh, absolutely. The-- under the anti-Insurrection Act, the-- the President can use regular troops to suppress rioting. The Confederate-- the Confederacy in our country opposed the use of federal troops to restore order and suppress an insurrection. So the federal government sometimes doesn't listen to governors in certain circumstances.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The last time that this has happened was the L.A. riots in 1992 when the governor of California asked for active-duty troops.
WILLIAM BARR: That's correct.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're saying your understanding and the law, as you interpret it and would support is that the President has the ability to put active-duty troops on American streets, even if governors object?
WILLIAM BARR: It's happened numerous times. And the answer to that is yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You would support that?
WILLIAM BARR: Well, it depends on the circumstances. I was involved in the L.A. riots and the Rodney King matter. We tried to use non-military forces. I sent two thousand federal law enforcement officers out there in one day, but it was overwhelming. And the National Guard couldn't handle it and Governor Pete Wilson asked for federal troops.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And he asked for them.
WILLIAM BARR: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's a key distinction.
WILLIAM BARR: Or he approved the use of federal troops, but those troops were on standby as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because I think a number of people would be surprised to hear and it's been reported that you opposed sending in active duty troops on principle. You're saying you would support it?
WILLIAM BARR: As a last resort.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So in this Monday meeting with the President, when the Defense Secretary, who has now publicly said that he opposed using the Insurrection Act, you said what to the President?
WILLIAM BARR: I don't think the Secretary of Defense said he opposed it. I think he said that it was a last resort; he didn't think it was necessary. I think we all agree that it's a last resort, but it's, ultimately, the President's decision. The-- the reporting is completely false on this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you believe there is systemic racism in law enforcement?
WILLIAM BARR: I think there's racism in the United States still but I don't think that the law enforcement system is systemically racist. I understand the-- the distrust, however, of the African-American community given the history in this country. I think we have to recognize that for most of our history, our institutions were explicitly racist. Since the 1960s, I think we've been in a phase of reforming our institutions and making sure that they're in sync with our laws and aren't fighting a rearguard action to impose inequities.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you think that's working?
WILLIAM BARR: I think-- I think the reform is a difficult task, but I think it is working and progress has been made. I think one of the best examples is the military. The military used to be explicitly racist institution. And now I think it's in the vanguard of-- of bringing the races together and providing equal opportunity. I think law enforcement has been going through the same process.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think there should be some tweaking of the rules, reduced immunity to go after some of the bad cops?
WILLIAM BARR: I don't think you need to reduce immunity to-- to go after the bad cops, because that would result certainly in-- in police pulling back. It's, you know, policing is the toughest job in the country. And I-- and I, frankly, think that we have generally the vast, overwhelming majority of police are good people. They're civic-minded people who believe in serving the public. They do so bravely. They do so righteously.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the bad cops.
WILLIAM BARR: I-- I think that there are instances of bad cops. And I think we have to be careful about automatically assuming that the actions of an individual necessarily mean that their organization is rotten. All organizations have people who engage in misconduct, and you sometimes have to be careful as to when you ascribe that to the whole organization and when it really is some errant member who isn't following the rules.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But doesn't the opening the pattern-or-practice investigation into a place like Minneapolis where there are questions about the broader issues with policing, it wasn't just the one officer, wouldn't that answer that question?
WILLIAM BARR: Well, that's exactly the reaction that I think has been a problem in the past, which is it just, again, just reacting to this incident by immediately putting the department under investigation doesn't necessarily result in-- in improving the situation. But I would say that in the first instance, the governor has announced an investigation of the police department. The governor, Governor Walz, a Democratic governor, is investigating the police department. The attorney general of-- of Minnesota is looking into the police department. We stand ready to act if we think it's necessary. But I don't think necessarily starting a-- a pattern-or-practice investigation at this stage is warranted. Another thing is we have to look at some of the evidence. I mean, people, you know, the fact is that the criminal justice system at both the state and the federal level moved instantaneously on this. And we moved quickly with our investigation. But we still have to look into what kind of use of force policies are used in that department, what the training has been and things like that. That's not something we can do overnight.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Coming up after our break, the attorney general tells us about the forcible clearing of Lafayette Park ahead of the President's visit there on Monday. Also, I want to make sure to note that CBS News stands by our David Martin's reporting. And we want to clarify here that the Secretary of Defense Esper does oppose the Insurrection Act. You can hear for yourself.
MARK ESPER: The option to use active duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort, and only in the most urgent and dire of situations. We are not in one of those situations now. I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll be back in one minute.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we're back now with more from Attorney General William Barr.
(Begin VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about some of the events of the week. On Monday, Lafayette Park was cleared of protesters. You've spoken about this. The federal agents who were there report up to you. Did you think it was appropriate for them to use smoke bombs, tear gas, pepper balls, projectiles at what appeared to be peaceful protesters?
WILLIAM BARR: They were not peaceful protesters. And that's one of the big lies that the-- the media is-- seems to be perpetuating at this point.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Three of my CBS colleagues were there. We talked to them.
WILLIAM BARR: Yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: They did not hear warnings. They did not see protesters--
WILLIAM BARR: There were three warnings.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --throwing anything.
WILLIAM BARR: There were three warnings given. But-- but let's get back to why we took that action. On Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, okay, there were violent riots in-- at Lafayette Park where the park police were under constant attack at the-- behind their bike rack fences. On Sunday, things reached a crescendo. The officers were pummeled with bricks. Crowbars were used to pry up the pavers at the park and they were hurled at police. There were fires set in not only St. John's Church, but a historic building at Lafayette was burned down.
MARGARET BRENNAN: These were things that looters did.
WILLIAM BARR: Not looters, these were-- these were the-- the violent rioters who were dominated Lafayette Park.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But what I'm asking about--
WILLIAM BARR: They broke into the Treasury Department--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --on Monday when it was a peaceful protest.
WILLIAM BARR: I'm going to-- let me-- let me get to this, because this has been totally obscured by the media. They broke into the Treasury Department, and they were injuring police. That night--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sunday night?
WILLIAM BARR: Sunday night, the park police prepared a plan to clear H Street and put a-- a larger perimeter around the White House so they could build a more permanent fence on Lafayette.
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is something you approved on Sunday night?
WILLIAM BARR: No. The Park Police on their own on-- on Sunday night determined this was the proper approach. When I came in Monday, it was clear to me that we did have to increase the perimeter on that side of Lafayette Park and push it out one block. That decision was made by me in the morning. It was communicated to all the police agencies, including the Metropolitan Police at 2:00 PM that day. The-- the effort was to move the perimeter one block and it had to be done when we had enough people in place to achieve that. And that decision, as I say, was communicated to the police at 2:00 PM. The operation was run by the Park Police.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
WILLIAM BARR: The Park Police was facing what they considered to be a very rowdy and a non-compliant crowd. And there were projectiles being hurled at the police. And at that point, it was not to respond--
MARGARET BRENNAN: On Monday, you're saying there were projectiles--
WILLIAM BARR: On Monday, yes, there were.
MARGARET BRENNAN: As I'm saying, three of my colleagues were there.
WILLIAM BARR: Yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: They did not see projectiles being thrown--
WILLIAM BARR: I was there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --when that happened.
WILLIAM BARR: I was there. They were thrown. I saw them thrown.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you believe that what the Park Police did using tear gas and projectiles was appropriate?
WILLIAM BARR: Here's-- here's what the media is missing. This was not an operation to respond to that particular crowd. It was an operation to move the perimeter one block.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And the methods they used you think were appropriate, is that what you're saying?
WILLIAM BARR: When they met resistance, yes. They announced three times. They didn't move. By the way, there was no tear gas used. The tear gas was used Sunday when they had to clear H Street to allow the fire department to come in to save St. John's Church. That's when tear gas was used.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There were chemical irritants the Park Police has said--
WILLIAM BARR: No, they were not chemical irritants. Pepper spray is not a chemical irritant. It's not chemical.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Pepper spray, you're saying is what was used--
WILLIAM BARR: Pepper balls. Pepper balls.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, and you believe that was appropriate. What I want to show you is what a lot of people at home who were watching this on television saw and their perception of events. I want you to see what the public at home saw.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I am your president of law and order and an ally of all peaceful protesters. But In recent days, our nation has been gripped by professional anarchists, violent mobs, arsonists, looters, criminals, rioters, Antifa and others. A number of state and local governments--
MARGARET BRENNAN: So while the President is saying that he appreciates peaceful protest, around the same time, this crowd--
WILLIAM BARR: Well, six minutes-- six minutes difference there I would say.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, around the same time the area is being cleared of what appear to be peaceful protesters using some force. And after the speech is finished, the President then walked out of the White House to the same area where the protesters had been and stands for photo op in front of the church where the protesters had been. These events look very connected to people at home. In an environment where the broader debate is about heavy-handed use of force and law enforcement, was that the right message for Americans to be receiving?
WILLIAM BARR: Well, the message is sometimes communicated by the media. I didn't see any video being played on the media of what was happening Friday, Saturday, and Sunday--
MARGARET BRENNAN: But-- but this confluence of events--
WILLIAM BARR: All I heard-- all I heard was comments about how peaceful protesters were. I didn't hear about the fact that there were hundred and fifty law enforcement officers injured and many taken to the hospital with concussions. So it wasn't a peaceful protest. We had to get control over Lafayette Park, and we had to do it as soon as we were able to do that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you understand how these events appear connected? The timing of this--
WILLIAM BARR: Well, it's the job of the media to tell the truth. They were not connected.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, this is what I'm asking you. Did you know when you gave the green light for these actions to be taken that the President was going to be going in that very same area for a photo op?
WILLIAM BARR: I gave the green light at two o'clock. Obviously, I didn't know that the President was going to be speaking later that day.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You had no idea?
WILLIAM BARR: No. No, I did not.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you see--
WILLIAM BARR: The go ahead was given at two o'clock. And to do it as soon as we were able to do it, to move the perimeter from-- from H Street to I Street.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We're both Catholic. I know you're observant. You're a devout Catholic. Archbishop Gregory of Washington condemned what happened by gassing peaceful protesters.
WILLIAM BARR: There-- there was no gas.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is-- is doing-- is what we saw there doing what you meant when you were on that call with governors and you said to dominate the streets?
WILLIAM BARR: Mm-Hm.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is that what law enforcement is supposed to be taking away from this?
WILLIAM BARR: No, on the contrary. My point to the governors and what I was saying was that it's important when you're dealing with civil disturbances to have adequate forces at hand and out.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: In addition, the former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's experience as a diplomat she's also an educator. Now, the director of the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. She's also the great great-granddaughter of a slave owner. And as a child was a friend of one of the young girls killed in the 1963 Birmingham church bombing. She was just a block away when it happened. We spoke to her earlier and asked her what she thinks is different about today's movement.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE (Former Secretary of State/@CondoleezzaRice): People are a little bit sick and tired of being sick and tired to quote the great civil rights leader, Fannie Lou Hamer. And I think that is leading people of various backgrounds, different colors, different experiences to say how can we really make the outcome different this time? And it's leading people to look at questions about our criminal justice system, about the justice of our institutions. But, more importantly, it's looking-- having us look in the mirror at questions about race. It's a very, very deep and abiding wound in an America that was born with a birth defect of slavery. And I'm really hoping that this time, we'll have really honest conversations, conversations that are not judgmental. Conversations that are deep but honest conversations about what we've been through and who we want to be.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You wrote in an opinion piece recently that, "protests will take our country only so far and if we are to make progress, let us vow to check the language of recrimination at the door." What do you mean by that?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: We have a very painful history. Europeans and Africans came to this country together. Africans came in chains. My-- my DNA is forty percent European. My great great-grandfather was my great-grandmother, slaver owner. That's a very hard truth. But it is the truth of the past. We now have to talk about how to move forward. And when I talk to people of different colors, particularly my white friends, my white colleagues, I don't want it to be in the language of recrimination. I want to be in the language of how do we move forward. I think we each have an individual responsibility. It's a collective responsibility, yes, but it's an individual responsibility to ask what am I going to do specifically? What am I going to do to help heal these wounds and to move our country forward? Because race is still very much a factor in everyday life in America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You said for you personally answering the question of "what do I do," you focused on education.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: I come from a family where my grandfather managed as-- as a sharecropper's son to get educated in Alabama in the 1920s. Education was always for us a way to break through the barriers of prejudice. An education is not a-- a shield against prejudice, but it gives people a fighting chance. If you look at this COVID-19 crisis, it has exposed even deeper inequalities in our society. Just imagine being a child who's trying to learn-- to learn at home and the parents don't speak English, the parents don't have an educational background of their own. And contrast that with the kid whose parents are well educated and who can read to them. We've got a lot of work to do around inequality.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And to your point about the pandemic, I mean it seems to be widening the existing divide. Just looking at the data the jobless rate in this country for the black community ticked up in May to seventeen percent and black women, in particular, are bearing the brunt of that. Where do you see the policy solutions coming from right now?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: This crisis has exacerbated problems that were there already, and we now have to ask ourselves, are we just going to say, well, my goodness, look at what we've seen, are we really going to act? We know that in this crisis, if you can work from home, if you are capable of being on the internet, then you can continue to work. You're not unemployed. Knowledge workers are doing better. Let's say every American is going to have broadband. Every American is going to have access to a reliable internet. And that means people in rural areas. That means people in-- in schools that are not well-endowed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: If you were advising this particular President, what would you be telling him to do at this moment?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: I would ask the President to first and foremost speak in the language of unity, the language of empathy. Not everyone is going to agree with any President, with this President, but you have to speak to every American, not just to those who might agree with you. And you have to speak about the deep wounds that we have and that we're going to overcome them. I've heard the President talk about the resilience of Americans. I'd love to hear more of that. Twitter and tweeting are-- are not great ways for complex thoughts, for complex messages. When the President speaks it-- it needs to be from a place of-- of thoughtfulness, from a place of having really honed the message so that it reaches all Americans. And, by the way, not just the President. I would love to hear this from our leaders in Congress on both sides of the aisle. I would love to hear it from mayors and from governors and from others. Leaders at this particular point--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: --need to do everything that they can to overcome, not intensify our divisions.
MARGARET BRENNAN: He has mourned George Floyd's death but he's used language like "when the looting starts, the shooting starts." He said his supporters love "the black people." When you hear phrases like that, how does that land with you? Do you just dismiss it because it's President Trump?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Well, no. The President, obviously, the shooting and looting, he said that he didn't know that historical context. And so I would say think about the historical context before you say something because it is a deep wound. And the presidency is special in that regard. People look to the Oval Office as we've looked to the Oval Office throughout our history for-- for messages, for signals. And, as I said, the President has used some language that I am really very, very much admire like the resilience of the American people. Just be careful about those messages. I am not advising the President, but if I were I would say let's put tweeting aside for a little bit and-- and talk to us have a conversation with us. And I think we need that. And I think he can do it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Retired General Jim Mattis said that it wasn't in his interpretation unintentional. In fact, he said, "Donald Trump is the first President in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people. He does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us." Do you believe that it's intentional? Do you agree with Mattis?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Well, look, I have enormous respect for Jim Mattis. And he's a man of great integrity. He's a patriot. He's my friend. And he spoke to something that he needed to speak to. What I want to speak to is the future and what we do here over the next several months. We are having protests that need to be peaceful, but we've always moved ahead in part by protest. There's no excuse-- excuse for the criminality and for the looting. That's not what-- who we are and what we are. But I will tell you, as somebody who grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, Jim Crow Alabama, when if a black man was shot by a policeman, it wouldn't have even been a footnote in the newspaper, I'm really grateful to people who are going out now and saying, no, that is not acceptable. I'm grateful to those people who are thinking about how to support good police, who are thinking about how to support all of those people who put their lives on the line every day to protect us, but also to say to those who do not have our best interests at heart, who don't undertake that obligation to protect and defend without regard to color, enough. We won't put up with that either. And so this is a time for every American to speak to our unity but to also be very cognizant of how we describe our differences, how we address our differences, and especially how we address one another with empathy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is there any circumstance in which you think it would be acceptable in these days to use what the President said to governors he would use, which was the Insurrection Act, to send active-duty military into American cities?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Well, I would absolutely advise against it, particularly, at this time. Look, the Founding Fathers were very smart about this. Thomas Jefferson talked about the citizen soldier, and the embodiment of the citizen soldier these days is the National Guard and Reserve. They come from these communities. They are of these communities. They are trained in everything from dealing with natural disasters to dealing with issues like crowd control. And when the local police can't handle it, the National Guard is the right-- the right answer. Our military isn't trained to do this. Our military is trained for the battlefield. And this isn't a battlefield in that sense.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Some of America's adversaries, Russia, Iran, China, they are using the images of what happened to Mister Floyd and what is happening on the streets of American cities right now in their own state propaganda. Do you see this racial divide as a national security threat to us?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: I would say to those, particularly, in places like China and Russia and Iran, who may want to use this for propaganda, let's not be absurd. This is not Tiananmen Square where you've mowed down people who disagreed with the government. This is not the invasion of Crimea where you took land from your neighbor. This is not the Green Revolution in Iran where you killed people wantonly because they wouldn't agree with the theocratic government. And I would even say to our friends abroad, in places like Europe, where I'm seeing demonstrations in support of what is happening here, thank you for your support, but please look in the mirror. Please ask yourself, in countries in Europe and countries all across the world, what are you doing about racial and ethnic in-- inequality in your own circumstances? America has gotten better because we have been willing to confront our problems. And we're going to confront our problems again. We're confronting them now. And I think we will move forward this time. But I-- I really don't need to be lectured by Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping about peaceful protest when they have themselves used their own force just because people wanted to criticize the government. That is not is what-- that is not what is happening here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Noted. Madam Secretary, you did not support President Trump in 2016. Seeing what you've seen, will you support him in 2020?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: As I've often said, when I'm ready to speak about American politics, I'll come back to you. And I'll-- you'll be the first to know when I want to speak about American politics. Right now, what I want to speak to is my fellow Americans and to understand the deep divisions that we have, to understand what it is to be black. You asked about the military earlier. Let's remember, too, that our people in uniform also come from different backgrounds. They come from different races. They are united in a common cause. But this is hard for them, too. And I know that their commanders are aware of the painful conversations that need to be-- need to take place even within our military. But one great thing is when we unite for a common cause, as they often do, it helps us to overcome those differences.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Madam Secretary, thank you for your reflections and your time today.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: It's a pleasure being with you. God bless.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Secretary Rice mentioned the international show of support. CBS News senior foreign correspondent Elizabeth Palmer reports on that movement around the world.
(Begin VT)
ELIZABETH PALMER (CBS News Senior Foreign Correspondent/@elizapalmer): In London, thousands poured into the streets around Parliament on Saturday--
WOMAN: Amen.
ELIZABETH PALMER: --in solidarity with American protesters. Their message--Black Lives Matter everywhere, and so does justice.
MAN: What do we want?
CROWD (in unison): Justice.
MAN: When do we want it?
CROWD (in unison): Now.
ELIZABETH PALMER: George Floyd's death galvanized demonstrators from Berlin to Seoul, South Korea.
(Crowd protesting)
ELIZABETH PALMER: --to Rio in Brazil, to Sydney, Australia, where it has a special resonance, especially among aboriginal people beaten or killed in custody. In 2015 Australia had its own George Floyd, David Dungay who died in custody shouting, I can't breathe.
DAVID DUNGAY: I can't breathe.
ELIZABETH PALMER: As the sign says--same story, different soil. There's the same anger, too, though, overall the protests this weekend were peaceful. In London, police skirmished briefly with a small knot of demonstrators. And there was a flurry of excitement when a police horse bolted. But the main message coming from the mostly young multiracial crowd was enough is enough. And to Americans, you are not alone.
(End VT)
ELIZABETH PALMER: Margaret, once again today thousands of Londoners are breaking the lockdown rules, they have come out to stage a fresh protests today in front of the American embassy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's our Liz Palmer. Thank you. Same story, different soil.
We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to Doctor Scott Gottlieb. He joins us from Westport, Connecticut. Good morning to you.
SCOTT GOTTLIEB, M.D. (Former FDA Commissioner/@ScottGottliebMD): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Doctor Fauci in an interview on Friday said that these protests are a perfect setup for the spread of the virus. So even though these protesters are young and wearing masks, you believe this will ignite more of an outbreak?
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Well, look, we're certainly going to see transmission coming out of these gatherings. There's no question about that. The prevalence in the United States of infection right now is about one in two hundred people, so you can estimate how many people probably have the infection in these gatherings. I think the-- the-- the idea of reducing the risk from these protests is a shared responsibility. There's steps that the protesters can take and you see many of them wearing masks in these protests and understanding the risks. There's also things authorities can do, I think, to reduce the risks in terms of how they de-escalate these situations. The best science we have on this question comes from a recent study that came out of Germany, where there were large gatherings in Germany in a small region there, and they looked at what the spread was coming out those gatherings. Now, mind you, these were festive gatherings, but they were large outdoor gatherings, nonetheless. And the science showed that there was about a two and a half times increase in the rate of transmission as a result of bringing people together in large gatherings. So we have some scientific basis to understand that these-- these kinds of settings do create risk.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And-- and these protests are happening in places that are largely hotspots. Minneapolis, Washington, DC. I know Houston, Texas, where George Floyd's body is going to be buried in this coming week also expects large crowds. What are you seeing in those places?
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Well, look, the protesters understood the risks, many of them. I think that's evidenced by the fact that they wore masks and they made a judgment that, you know, they were worth the risk in terms of going out and protesting what are legitimate underlying grievances. I think you're right. These are occurring in hotspots. We're likely to see cases go up. I think trying to tease out what the contribution is from the protests versus the contribution just of the general reopening is going to be hard. But when you look at cities like New York City, where cases have come down dramatically, you have below a hundred hospitalizations a day right now. I think we're probably going to see an uptick. We're going to see an uptick in other major cities where there have been these protests. It's hard to judge just how much right now. And it's going to take a couple of weeks. We're probably going to have to get a few transmission cycles out to really judge what the impact was. I think what the protesters can do is try to take precautions. Wear masks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Distance where they can and try to avoid, you know, things like getting in contact with elderly people, people who are vulnerable after attending these protests.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. I know a number of mayors have told attendees to go get a COVID test. I want to ask you about where we are with vaccines. You know, Secretary Azar was on this program just about three weeks ago, and he told us the administration's going to unveil their four to six selections for a vaccine, the-- the final candidates. New York Times reported this week that's going to be imminent. What is the delay here?
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Well, I'm not sure there's a delay. There was reporting this week that looked like it came off administration officials that they've made a selection of at least five candidates. Those were two mRNA vaccines, RNA-based vaccines, where you're delivering the genetic material from the virus to code for the production of the protein on the virus that you want people to develop antibodies against and then three vaccines that are using viral vectors to deliver that same protein. It's called a spike protein. It's what the virus uses to invade our cells. These are very novel platforms. I'm on the board of one company that's developing one of these platforms, an mRNA platform. That company is Pfizer. I think they also need to think about trying to include some older-style vaccines in that-- that mix. Sanofi has a-- a vaccine that's based on a-- delivering the protein directly. That's an older approach, more tried and true. So in addition to the novelty, which is likely to deliver more immunogenicity, I think that's a judgment they're making. They should probably fall back on some older-style technologies as well. That's, in fact, what the Chinese are doing. They're using very old-style vaccines and they may beat us to the market because of that. So they may have vaccines that are less protective, but be able to get them to their population earlier. And they're probably making a judgment that partial protection earlier is better than full protection later.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you told us May 24th, the candidates were Oxford, AstraZeneca, Moderna, Pfizer, Merck, Johnson & Johnson and Sanofi. Are-- what should be added to that? Any surprises?
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Well, what wasn't added to that based on the reporting this week was Sanofi. So the five vaccines were the five you mentioned, with the exception of Sanofi. Sanofi has that protein-based vaccine that's based on the same platform that they use to develop their flu vaccine. That, frankly, I think, should be included. Now, I'm not aware of how far along they are, whether there has been any issues with their development plan that caused regulators to make judgments or public health officials to make judgments to not include that. And perhaps they will include that. Perhaps the reporting isn't complete. The other company that has a protein-based vaccine that appears to be far along in terms of going into Phase I studies is Novavax. And so that's another one that might merit some considerations. But I would reach back and include some older-style approaches in addition to the novelty. The-- the--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Okay.
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: --the issue is I think that the more novel approaches are going to be more immunogenic, probably.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. Doctor Gottlieb, thank you very much for joining us.
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Thanks a lot.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We asked one of the most prolific writers we now for his thoughts this week, here's John Dickerson.
(Begin VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: In his inaugural address, President Trump promised that--
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: The forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer.
JOHN DICKERSON: He promised action on behalf of those who had been ignored by the powerful and to fix a system that had kept them ignored. This week protesters took to the streets to fix a broken system. They marched on behalf of forgotten men and women--George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery. Forgotten that they were citizens, forgotten that they were human. President George W. Bush said Floyd's death resulted from systemic racism. The latest in a long series of tragedies, not incidents but victims of a system that had forgotten them. The marchers pushing across the nation sought justice which starts with a recognition. Some answer was required to the cry of pain to show that it was heard not in the ear but in the heart. Justice requires a hearing. This was a moment for a President, a few paragraphs and the usual brief fibrillation of public care were not enough. In a nation dedicated to equality, the President is the one official who represents everybody and who could use his office to focus national concern. A President could bear witness. We know what it looks like when a President considers an issue vital, he takes emergency action. When he doesn't that sends a signal too. Monday night President Trump made his emergency move. He walked from the White House to St. John's, the church of the presidents, spending the full armory of political capital, symbolism and concern. He did so not as a bomb but a rebuke. He held the Bible not for comfort, but as a cudgel. Protesters had come to the White House to ask that their agony not be swept aside this time. On order President's show of force they were swept aside by shield and smoke. It will not soon be forgotten, which is what the forgotten men and women and their allies hoped the President would help them say about their cause to.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll be talking with John next week about his new book, The Hardest Job in the World.
We'll see you then. Thank you all for watching.
