Full transcript of "Face the Nation" on February 13, 2022
On this "Face the Nation" broadcast moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Jake Sullivan, White House national security adviser
- Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former FDA commissioner
- Governor Phil Murphy, Democrat of New Jersey
- Representative Adam Kinzinger, Republican of Illinois
- Mary Daly, president and CEO of the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco
Click here to browse full transcripts of "Face the Nation."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan. And today on Face the Nation: U.S. officials warn that Russia is planning to invade Ukraine, and soon.
And the FDA puts a pause on vaccines for the very youngest. President Biden warns Vladimir Putin of the -- quote -- "swift and severe costs facing Russia if they attack Ukraine, and tells most Americans to get out of there now.
We will have the latest news, plus White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan and Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger.
As COVID cases continue to plummet, it's blue state governors now leading the charge to lift some health restrictions. Health officials say it's too soon. We will talk to New Jersey Democratic Governor Phil Murphy, plus former FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb.
Finally: Inflation jumps again, and the Fed moves closer to raising interest rates to stabilize the economy. We will check in with San Francisco Federal Reserve President Mary Daly. It's all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation on this Super Bowl Sunday. For many pandemic-weary Americans, game day is a much-needed break, if only for a day.
But we are now at the 11th hour of a crisis that is 5,000 miles away in Ukraine. Diplomatic efforts to defuse a potential military conflict that poses the biggest threat to Europe since World War II involve not just the U.S., but our NATO allies. President Biden spoke with Vladimir Putin for an hour yesterday, telling the Russian president that an attack on Ukraine would have a catastrophic impact and cause widespread human suffering. Mr. Biden also told him a diplomatic solution was still possible. President Biden plans to speak to Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky later today.
Our Imtiaz Tyab reports from Kyiv.
(Begin VT)
IMTIAZ TYAB (voice-over): Ukraine's armed forces may be small compared with Russia's, but they are mighty. President Volodymyr Zelensky oversaw the exercises held not far from Russian-occupied Crimea, a territory seized by Vladimir Putin eight years ago.
The U.S. is now warning of an all-out invasion of Ukraine, and says there's mounting evidence that Russia is poised to attack again, this time with a multiaxis assault using ground troops, amphibious forces, airstrikes, and even ballistic missiles. But Zelensky says those dire warnings are doing more harm than good.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: The best friend for enemies, that is panic in our country. And all this information that helps only for panic doesn't help us.
IMTIAZ TYAB: As thousands took to the streets of Kyiv, calling for peace, the U.S. quickly pulled military and other personnel out of the country, along with the U.K., Canada, Australia, and nearly a dozen other nations following suit. Russia's military buildup in the region is only growing, with enormous live-fire military drills in neighboring Belarus and Moldova. The war games are mere miles away from the thousands of NATO and allied troops in the region in what is the largest military buildup on the continent since the Cold War.
Haunted by the chaotic scramble to evacuate from Afghanistan, President Biden has vowed he will not send in troops to Ukraine to rescue trapped Americans, with the State Department urging all Americans to leave immediately.
(End VT)
IMTIAZ TYAB: Now, the deep skepticism here in Ukraine of an all-out war is dwarfed by Russia's massive military buildup on its borders, as attempts to end this crisis with diplomacy intensify -- Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Imtiaz Tyab, thank you.
For more insight on the military threat, we're joined by national security correspondent David Martin. Good morning, David. Good to have you here. What is the latest on the Russian troop movements?
DAVID MARTIN: Well, about 30 Russian warships have begun live-fire exercises in the Black Sea. And if you plot the coordinates of those exercises, you will see that those exercises cover virtually the entire southern coast of Ukraine.
Meanwhile, you have those exercises with 30,000 Russian troops going on in Belarus, whose border is just an hour away from the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv. Russia now has 80 percent of the forces it would need to conduct an all-out invasion. And the rest are on their way. Some of those troops that we have seen parked bumper to bumper in those assembly areas in satellite photos, they're starting to move out of those assembly areas a little closer to the border, but not yet into what you would call an attack position. The U.S. has intelligence that Putin has told his commanders to be ready to go on the 16th, which is Wednesday. Now, whether it all plays out according to that timetable remains to be seen. But we are clearly at crunch time. And, up until now, we have been able to see what Putin is doing, but haven't been able to know what he's thinking. He is about to have to declare himself.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And this is just incredibly high stakes. President Biden has said he would not send in combat troops to Ukraine. But, if you look at that map, we have NATO forces very close to Russian forces. There's a high degree of miscalculation risk.
DAVID MARTIN: The stakes in this are really incredibly high. I mean, you have the sovereignty of a country, Ukraine. You have the solidity of an alliance, NATO. But, above everything else, you have the threat of a war between two, U.S. -- nuclear -- and two nuclear superpowers, the U.S. and Russia. And that has to be avoided at all costs. And, frankly, I think that is why Putin has been so methodical in this buildup, and, in fact, maybe even telegraphing some of his punches, so that the Americans have plenty of time to get out of the way, because, once the shooting starts, unintended consequences set in, political pressures build, and nobody can guarantee where this is going to end. And if that wasn't dicey enough, Putin has taken an annual nuclear exercise usually run in the fall and rescheduled it to run this month. And that exercise usually includes the firing of ICBMs, test-firing of ICBMs, and of submarine-launched ballistic missiles. The last time he did that, reschedule that exercise, was when he annexed Crimea. It's his way of saying, Ukraine is much more important to me than it is to you. And, if I have to, I will resort to nuclear weapons.
MARGARET BRENNAN: David, thank you for clearly sketching out the stakes here.
DAVID MARTIN: Sure thing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Good to have you here. We go now to the White House, national security adviser, Jake Sullivan. Good morning to you, Jake.
JAKE SULLIVAN (U.S. National Security Adviser): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You were on that hour-long call between President Biden and Russian President Vladimir Putin. There were no breakthroughs. Is there any reason to believe Putin is going to take any of the diplomatic options you've given him?
JAKE SULLIVAN: Look, I'm not going to predict what Vladimir Putin is going to do. All I can do is make sure that we're prepared to respond either way. If Russia wants to continue engaging diplomatically to find a way forward to address their security concerns and our security concerns, we're prepared to do that. If Russia decides instead to take major military action against Ukraine. We're prepared to respond decisively.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But there's no diplomacy underway right now? There's nothing that came out of yesterday's call?
JAKE SULLIVAN: As far as we're concerned, the United States of America, diplomacy is still open and available. But, if Russia chooses to move, we're prepared to respond.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You said an attack by Russia could happen as soon as this week. Are you seeing Russian troops move into tactical positions?
JAKE SULLIVAN: We have seen over the course of the past 10 days a dramatic acceleration in the buildup of Russian forces and the disposition of those forces in such a way that they could launch a military action essentially at any time. They could do so this coming week. But, of course, it still awaits the go order. And so, therefore, we cannot predict the precise day or time that they may take action. We also are watching very carefully for the possibility that there is a pretext or a false flag operation to kick off the Russian action, in which Russian intelligence services conduct some kind of attack on Russian proxy forces in Eastern Ukraine or on Russian citizens, and then blame it on the Ukrainians.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm. Russian intelligence is already publicly claiming things are happening in the east of Ukraine in that Donbass region. Is that the flash point where you think things would start?
JAKE SULLIVAN: It is one distinct possibility. And, to your point, the Russian media has been laying the groundwork for this publicly by trying to condition their public that some kind of attack by the Ukrainians is imminent. And there is a kind of bizarre quality to all of this, where the Russians are claiming they are the ones who are under threat, despite the fact that they have amassed more than 100,000 forces on the troops of -- excuse me -- on the border of their neighbor. And they have done so not just on their own territory, but on the territory of Belarus, which is the country, of course, that borders Ukraine to the north.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. I mean, you said on Friday in the White House Briefing Room Americans should get out within the next 24 to 48 hours. That puts us at today. What are you telling Americans who remain? Should they go underground? Is it too late to leave now?
JAKE SULLIVAN: As long as commercial transport options are available, Americans should take advantage of them. We had hoped, based on our warnings, that Americans would have gotten out by now, but, as long as those commercial transit options are available, Americans should avail themselves of them. They should move out by air or rail or road as rapidly as possible, because, as I said also on Friday, if there is military action, if there is a war between Russia and Ukraine started by a Russian invasion of Ukraine, President Biden is not intending to send in American forces to fight Russia in that war. And Americans who have the opportunity to get out now should avail themselves of it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But airspace remains open right now. If Russia does carry out this invasion, you've talked about the consequences with sanctions, but are you committed to actually funding, arming, helping a Ukrainian insurgency?
JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, what the president has said is that we will continue to support Ukraine even after an invasion begins. And I'm not going to get into the specific details of what that will look like, but it is one of the three fundamental elements of our response, continue to support Ukraine as it seeks to resist Russian aggression, second, impose severe and swift economic measures, in concert with our allies and partners, that go at Russia's financial system and at its defense industrial base, and then, third, reinforce, reassure and deter. That is, reinforce NATO territory, reassure our allies on the eastern flank...
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
JAKE SULLIVAN: ... and deter Russia from any action against NATO allies, to whom we have a sacred Article 5 commitment to defend. We are going to carry out all of those actions...
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
JAKE SULLIVAN: ... in the event that Russia moves forward. And we've been very clear about that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But, at the same time, you have pretty close proximity between NATO troops and Russian troops. Is this just a potential risk of a miscalculation that's incredibly high at this moment?
JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, Margaret, part of the reason that we've been as transparent as we have about the deployment of American forces to Romania and Poland, about our exercises from the Mediterranean up to the Baltics, the reason we've gone out publicly and laid out both what the scope and parameters of those deployments and exercises are and what their purpose is, is to avoid mistake, miscalculation or escalation, and also to send a very clear message to Russia. We will defend every inch of NATO territory, every inch of Article 5 territory. And Russia, we think, fully understands that message.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But is it possible this is just the world's most expensive and dangerous bluff on the part of Vladimir Putin?
JAKE SULLIVAN: Again, as I said at the top of your show, I can't get in the head of Vladimir Putin and I can't predict exactly what he's going to do. The United States is prepared. Our allies are prepared. And now it's up to Russia to determine what the next step they will take is.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Jake, I know Afghanistan and Ukraine couldn't be more different, but there is always the risk when you are making policy choices that you're fighting the last war, instead of addressing what's happening now. These loud warnings about Ukraine, about the need to get out, is this because of how the White House miscalculated the level of chaos around the U.S. evacuation from Afghanistan? President Biden said this week that he wasn't warned. "No one told me." And he rejected the findings of this Army report, pointing to errors.
JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, first of all, Margaret, Afghanistan does play into this in an important way. Because the American people saw the United States deploy thousands of soldiers and then evacuate 124,000 people from Kabul last August, it's totally possible that there are some Americans out there in Ukraine thinking the exact same thing is going to happen in Ukraine. And it's our obligation to indicate to them that that is not, in fact, the case, that there is a big difference between ending a 20-year war in Afghanistan and sending American forces in to fight Russian forces near their border in a war in Ukraine, which the president is not prepared to do. So, we are trying to dispel any notion that the United States is going to deploy thousands of forces to Ukraine to fight in order to evacuate Americans.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did you learn the lessons of Afghanistan? Are you applying them now?
JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, first of all, to the point about the report you just mentioned, the president and I sitting here today do reject the reports in "The Washington Post" that the White House or the NSC sought to slow down the evacuation...
MARGARET BRENNAN: This was a FOIA version of an Army report.
JAKE SULLIVAN: The opposite is true. From the president -- from the president on down, it was the White House and the NSC pushing military leaders and diplomats day by day through those early days of August to say, should we begin the evacuation now? And as soon as, the minute our military leaders and diplomats recommended to the president that he do so, literally, that minute, he ordered the evacuation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: August 12. Thank you, Jake Sullivan, for your time today. We'll be watching. Good luck. Face the Nation will be back in a moment. Stay with us.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: With COVID cases dropping nationally, some states are now dropping mask mandates. But the Biden administration and the CDC are saying, not so fast. Mark Strassmann reports.
(Begin VT)
MAN: Rip up those cards and be proud.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
MARK STRASSMANN (voice-over): Shredded vaccination cards, proof that COVID resentment...
PROTESTER: What do we want
PROTESTERS: Safe schools!
MARK STRASSMANN: ... runs a continuous fever on all sides.
GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE (D-Washington): They say the last mile of any trip is the most challenging, and that may be the case here.
MARK STRASSMANN: But for COVID chroniclers and all you mask haters, a milestone moment.
GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL (D-New York): Given the declining cases, given declining hospitalizations, that is why we feel comfortable to lift this.
MARK STRASSMANN: With new cases plunging, New York is one of 10 blue states where governors announced plans to drop some form of indoor mask mandates last week, getting out ahead of the Biden administration's guidance. Seven of the 10 are dropping mask mandates in schools.
WOMAN: I'm very excited. My children have had enough of this. I'm ready for normalcy to begin.
MARK STRASSMANN: But with COVID, reality always clouds normalcy's return.
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY (CDC Director): We continue to recommend masking in areas of high and substantial transmission -- that's much of the country right now -- in public indoor settings.
MARK STRASSMANN: For parents of young kids, another setback, the FDA and Pfizer's decision to delay approval of a vaccine for kids 5 and under at least until April. Millions of Americans have another growing worry, America's startling inflation rate, a spike of 7.5 percent, the highest in 40 years, showing no signs of mercy until at least summer.
WOMAN: I have noticed all of my fun money has gone to food.
MARK STRASSMANN: And for 2022 zeitgeist, COVID economic agitation, social fracturing, these ongoing protests along the Canadian border have it all, truckers furious about mandatory vaccinations. A Canadian judge's order: Go home. Many did. But police this morning began making arrests and towing vehicles. Until traffic flows again on the Ambassador Bridge, two countries will worry about their latest supply chain headache.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mark Strassmann reporting from Atlanta.
We go now to former FDA commissioner and Pfizer board member Dr. Scott Gottlieb. Doctor, I have to say there was a lot of whiplash this week with the FDA and the Pfizer decision to hit the brakes on this vaccine for toddlers, for children ages four and younger. Now we have to wait until April for a decision. What happened?
DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Yeah, there were no new safety issues coming out of the data set, the issue here is the ability for the FDA and for Pfizer to clearly define the level of efficacy that the vaccine is delivering. And what you have is a situation where the data sets continuing to evolve because we're still in the middle of this Omicron wave of infection, there still effect infections accruing on the patients in the clinical trial, both the patients who have been vaccinated and the patients who've been unvaccinated. And so, the data set is changing. And there was additional data that was submitted to the FDA late last week, on Thursday and Friday that changed the FDA's perception of the absolute efficacy of the vaccine. And given the fact that that is changing, that's evolving. New data is accruing. It's hard for the FDA to give its advisers a fixed snapshot of what the absolute efficacy is of this clinical trial, of the data set. And so, if they wait a little longer, if they administer the third dose in that clinical trial, they're not only going to have perhaps a better measure of effectiveness from this trial, but they'll also have a settled data set. They'll have a very firm picture of what- what level of effectiveness the vaccine is delivering, and that's important for patients and pediatricians to be able to make fully informed decisions because it's important to know that the vaccine is safe. But it's also important to know what the level of effectiveness that's delivering as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's whiplash in the meantime, as parents continue to wait. And then we also see, you know, in some areas of the country, like New Jersey, states lifting their mask requirements in schools. So should parents of children under the age of five keep their kids back- keep their kids masks in school?
DR. GOTTLIEB: Look, I think there's portions of the population that are going to be in a very difficult spot right now because they remain vulnerable, one portion of the population are young children, parents who work who are at risk of bringing the infection back into the home with a child who's unvaccinated. Also, people who are older, who have comorbid conditions that put them at risk of COVID will continue to be vulnerable. But we're clearly shifting from a compact where there was a shared sense of sacrifice across the population generally to take certain measures to take certain mitigation, like wearing masks, like protecting congregate settings towards one where policymakers are clearly shifting the burden onto individuals to try to protect themselves based on their own measure of their risk and the risk of their environment. It's incumbent upon policymakers to give people the tools to do that, but there are pockets of society that don't have those tools, like young children don't have vaccines, so parents are in a difficult spot. They're going to continue to have to remain vigilant if they're concerned about the risk of infection, those young children. But this is clearly a trend right now across the country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Walmart, world's largest retailer, I mean, they set the tone for a lot of corporate America. They have decided to lift the mask mandate for vaccinated employees. You have this wave of Democratic governors, as you predicted lifting mask mandates. But the CDC and the president say it is too early. Is this just another round of the CDC being too slow or is everyone else moving too fast?
DR. GOTTLIEB: Well, the CDC is setting a national standard and there's still parts of the country that have a lot of Omicron infection, not every part of the country is through this wave of the epidemic. Clearly, the Northeast is the mid-Atlantic, where cases are 20 cases per hundred thousand people per day. But when you look at states like Kentucky, West Virginia, Tennessee, Missouri, they're at about 100 cases, or Mississippi, there are about 100 cases per hundred thousand people per day. That's a pretty dense epidemic. So the CDC has a hard time setting a national standard across a very diverse experience with this- this virus. I think what you're going to see the CDC do, though, is come out with guidance that's more specific to communities. That's based on what the local prevalence is, and that's probably where they should have been all along. I think they're going to make that adaptation because there clearly are parts of the country where prevalence is low enough now and heading in a positive direction if they can start lifting this mitigation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: One other question before I let you go, you tweeted this week that it's hard to believe in the middle of the worst public health crisis in modern times. Democrats are letting twist in the wind, their party's nominee for FDA chief. Why, more than a year into the administration do we not have a confirmed FDA commissioner?
DR. GOTTLIEB: Well, look, I'm hoping Rob Califf, Dr. Rob Califf, will be confirmed this week is going to go before the Senate. I think he's an outstanding choice for the agency previously held that job, and I inherited the FDA from his leadership, so a lot of his policies and his team was what I inherited when I took over the agency. You know, there's different political reasons why senators have made an issue of his confirmation. One of them is the issue of opioids, which he's been very strong on advancing policies to help deal with the opioid epidemic.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So well, it sounds like he has your endorsement there. Dr. Gottlieb, I have to leave it there and hit this break. Thank you so much.
Dr. Gottlieb, I have to leave it there to hit this break. Thank you so much. Stay with us, all of you. There's more Face the Nation ahead.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: If you can't watch the full Face the Nation, you can set your DVR. Plus, you can watch us through our CBS or Paramount+ app.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with more Face the Nation.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: We're back with a new CBS News poll. The drop in Covid cases has, in turn, improved America's views on our handling of the virus, but people are still struggling with trying to deal with the pandemic's impact. Joining us now is CBS News elections and survey's director Anthony Salvanto. Good morning, Anthony. You know, the CDC director says we're still not out of the clear. Is that how the public feels?
ANTHONY SALVANTO: Good morning, Margaret. Yes, that sense that things are better but not yet well. When you look at the emotions that people express toward Covid safety measures right now, there is still a lot of patience with them, but it is mixed. There is frustration. There is exhaustion. It is not just one thing in the public minds, it's reflective of the fact that we've been through all these ups and downs and the waves. Now, when you look at particular measures, mask requirements, there still is a majority that would favor that.
But the thing you want to understand is, besides partisanship behind this is the difference between the fully vaccinated, who are far more supportive, they've long been more concerned about the pandemic, long been more concerned about what to do, and they are more supportive than the remaining unvaccinated who are more frustrated and who feel that these measures do not work, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we saw some of that in our own focus group that we did with parents. And, really, across the board, we heard, regardless of political affiliation, they were all incredibly concerned about their children.
ANTHONY SALVANTO: Yes, when we talked to parents in this poll, we found that so many said that their kids' mental and emotional health, their kids' educational development had gotten worse during the pandemic. Sizable numbers there. So, yes, parents are seeing those changes. And what to do about it, though? When you see parents who still support mask mandates, with the majority saying they still could be required, how do those two things mesh? Well, there are plenty of things that parents do, as any parent of young kids will tell you, that they thing will protect their kids, even though it makes them feel frustrated and exhausted. And, finally, Margaret, I would add this, when people look right now at the state of things in this country, the number who say things are going well is up from last month, but it's still not a high number. So, a little bit better but not yet well. Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Anthony, how people feel impacts how they might vote. Thank you.
We go now to Governor Phil Murphy of New Jersey. He was the first of several blue state governors this week to announce plans to roll back statewide mask mandates in schools. Good morning to you, governor.
NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR PHIL MURPHY: Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The CDC says we are not there yet. You say you're following the science, so what do you know that the CDC director does not?
MURPHY: Yeah, I think New Jersey's Scott Gottlieb hit this point very well. Our numbers are- are improving and I would use the word dramatically, rate of transmission, positivity rate, hospitalizations, cases, in-school transmissions, all going in a dramatically good direction. The- the- challenge is this- this spike, this- this variant has spiked straight up, and it's now coming straight down. New Jersey, New York, got hit early in this wave, as we have in all of the waves. The fact of the matter is our experience is very different right now from the average American state's experience. So, the CDC, which we have been adherent to from the get-go, and we think they're doing a terrific job, they've just got a much more complex reality. The- the science and the data and the facts on the ground in New Jersey have allowed us to take this step.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, CDC still says you're at a high transmission level, but I want to ask you about- in Virginia, the Republican governor here, right nearby Washington, D.C.- is locked in court battles over his decision to pull back mask mandates. He made that call back in January. Did you fear similar political blowback? I mean, did you look at that example?
MURPHY: Now, listen, I think they've done it- with great respect, they've done that backwards. They basically banned mandates and- and- and then said to the districts sue us to get that overturned. We've done the exact opposite. In other words, we're lifting the mask mandate, by the way, on March 7th, so we gave ourselves a four week runway and then allowed districts or individuals as they so choose to- to put local mandates or wear masks in place.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But for those local districts, I mean, aren't you just kind of transferring a political problem down to a more local level? How do those school districts, how do those mayors, how do they make the call? What benchmarks are you specifically giving them on whether it's safe to advise lifting those masks or not?
MURPHY: Yeah- we have got the virus at least as we sit here, Margaret, and every time you think you've got to figure it out, it humbles you, it takes a turn you don't expect. But as best we can tell right now, this thing is going from pandemic to endemic. And we feel it is the responsible step to take to allow districts, if they so choose, based on their local health realities, working with their local health officers to- to make a decision on their own. My gut tells me, particularly as we get into warmer weather in the spring and assuming the virus continues to go in the right direction, you'll have the overwhelming amount of districts following suit and lifting the mandate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did you get any timeline from the White House, from the CDC at all on when they will give federal guidelines to do what you're doing?
MURPHY: We have not, although w-we think that the Biden administration has done an outstanding job managing this, but again, they've got a much more complex reality. This isn't one of these earlier waves where the curves went sort of- sweeping over months up and sweeping over months down. This thing goes up like a rocket ship, and it's straight down. I'm sure it's only a matter of time until we see federal guidance.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you- you know- as a Democrat, your thoughts here, going into these races, you just went through an election yourself. Former President Obama spoke this week to House Democrats and told them to take the wins you can get, it doesn't help to whine about stuff you can't change. Do you feel like Democrats are in a defensive crouch going into these midterm races?
MURPHY: I'm not sure, Margaret, defensive crouch, but I- I would say that we're probably focused a lot more on what we have not been able to get done, a lot more on process, than we have on the historic things that we have got done as a party. I mean, the president and Congress have gotten a bipartisan infrastructure law that is historic. The American Rescue Plan money's historic- by the way, a lot of which have yet to be spent. I think we should celebrate, just to pick those two examples and- and- and- remind folks why they got done and who delivered the goods for them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But when it comes to political liabilities, one of the things we've seen in our polling, is the lived experience of Americans, and they experience the economy through the prices they pay- inflation at seven and a half percent- is this the biggest political liability for Democrats or is that just not how you see things?
MURPHY: I think it's a challenge for Democrats, for sure. I- I think and I'll put myself in this category early on, we talked a lot about whether this was transitory, how deep and- and- and- and impactful it would be. The fact of the matter is it's real. It's here. My guess is it's here for the balance of this calendar year. We've done a lot in- in our state as it relates to affordability. So I think anything Democrats can do- we- we've passed 14 tax cuts for the middle class of working families and seniors in our first term- steps like that, making health care more affordable, college more affordable, property taxes more affordable, anything we could do as a party, I have to believe, will resonate because inflation is real.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Very quickly, is there a risk from this trucker convoy in these protests? I know New Jersey is a logistics hub.
MURPHY: Without question, we have one of the largest ports in the country and knocking on wood with our folks have managed it brilliantly in the context of this pandemic, but that trucker reality is a threat without question.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Governor, thank you very much for your time today. We will be right back.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: And we're back with Congressman Adam Kinzinger of Illinois, who is one of two Republican members on the committee investigating the Jan. 6th insurrection. Good morning to you, congressman.
REPRESENTATIVE ADAM KINZINGER: Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to start on what is happening most immediately between Russia and Ukraine. You have these massive Russian military exercises. How do you assess the Biden Administration's handling of the situation so far?
REP. KINZINGER: Yeah, look, I'm on- I'm on Team America. Team Ukraine. There are some nuances I would have done different than the Biden administration, but I think now's the time to- to stand unified. And what I'd say is they have done a good job, particularly in bringing out intel early to try to defang any Russian narrative that could come with Ukraine. We know about the discussion of a false flag attack. Well, now we've made it clear that Russia may do that. And and so I think a lot of that is good. One thing I will add, though, is we have to shut down Nord Stream Two regardless of what happens in Ukraine because Ukraine is using energy as a weapon. And I think that's important to do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Russia is using energy as a weapon--
REP. KINZINGER: Yes, that's what I mean-
MARGARET BRENNAN: -- that's what you mean.
REP. KINZINGER: Yes Russia.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On Russia, generally, you know, there had been for so long bipartisan support for standing up to Russia and standing up for democracies. But there is this interesting trend within the conservative movement right now. You have more Trump oriented parts of the party, like- like Senator Josh Hawley, who recently called on President Biden to rule out admitting Ukraine into NATO. You have similar sentiment- sentiments elsewhere. What is happening here? I mean, how significant a portion of the Republican Party is moving in this direction.
REP. KINZINGER: Well, I don't think it's a huge portion, but it's way too big and it's growing and it's a huge concern. I mean, what was this five years ago? It might be like somebody like Rand Paul that would say something or Dana Rohrabacher. Now there's a significant number of folks doing it with Tucker Carlson talking about, you know, how great Vladimir Putin is and how Ukraine is really actually part of Russia. I think it's a couple of things. Number one, it could be some naivete on foreign policy, not in Tucker's case. I think it's an affection for authoritarianism. And I think Vladimir Putin has done a decent job of engaging in culture battles and culture war, and he is seen as the person defending, in essence, the culture of the past. And so it's very frightening. And by the way, you know, Ukraine is not sure. Already, one third of the country of Georgia is occupied by Russia. Nobody's going to stop them from going into the rest of that. Then you have the Baltics, you have the Balkans that they're interfering in. This is a frightening moment, and any Republican that has affection for Vladimir Putin has no understanding of what our party stands for or what out country stands for.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When it comes to what your party stands for. You are on that Jan. 6th committee, as we mentioned, Rudy Giuliani, the president's attorney, former attorney, is apparently speaking to the committee in some form. Is he being cooperative at this point? What can you tell us about that?
REP. KINZINGER: Well, what I can tell you is he's been subpoenaed, our expectation is he is going to cooperate because that's the law, that's the requirement, same as if somebody subpoenaed to court. There may be some changes and dates and moments here as, you know, lawyers do their back and forth. But we fully expect that in accordance with the law. We'll hear from Rudy. But look, regardless of when we hear from Rudy or how long that interview is, we're getting a lot of information and we're looking forward to wrapping this up at some point when that is right, showing it to the American people, but not rushing it, not hurrying this. We want everybody to have the full story. That's what's important. I have a new son. I want to make sure that in five and 10 years, when he's learning about this and history class, he gets the full answer and not some conspiracy garbage that we hear out there every day.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is the plan still to begin those public hearings in the spring?
REP. KINZINGER: I think spring or summer and in that timeframe is the hope, basically we'll will want to be able to- to take this information and present it to the American people, not just in a report which is going to be essential, but in people, in faces and in stories.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said this week in very clear terms that January 6th was a violent insurrection for the purpose of trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power after a legitimately certified election. So unlike some Republicans, he's clearly pointing to the intent of the actors, he's not just talking about the fact that there was some violence. He's saying what the people were doing that day was inherently wrong. And what President Trump was saying about the election has also now been clearly said by Vice President Mike Pence to have been wrong. Does this give more political cover to Republicans running for election in 2022 to say this? Or is it still too dangerous?
REP. KINZINGER: Well, it does give more political cover. The question is, will it? You know, I have- I have lost faith in some of the courage of my colleagues. I thought that every person when they swore an oath had some version of a red line they would never cross. But certainly, Mitch McConnell's statement was important. Certainly, the vice president's statement was important. But Margaret, this is a moment where every Republican. I don't care if you're running for city council all the way up to Congress, Senate, et cetera. Every Republican has to be clear and forceful on the record. Do they think January 6th was legitimate political discourse? Don't let them avoid it. Don't let them hem haw and don't let them transition to some other subject they'd rather talk about. This is an answer every one of them have to give, and then we can move on once they're clear and on the record. But this is definitive to our democracy. How do you feel? Was it legitimate?
MARGARET BRENNAN: As you know, the chairwoman of the Republican National Committee and even Senator Marco Rubio, who was on this program last Sunday, argued that there's a difference between the day and then what the committee you are on and the work you were doing, what those things add up to. They argue that your committee is persecuting ordinary citizens that had nothing to do with violence. How do you respond to that?
REP. KINZINGER: I mean, it's obviously a convenient way for them to deflect. We are not looking at the twenty thousand or so people that were there on January 6th that did not enter the Capitol grounds. We're looking at the corruption that led up to the moment and what happened since. We're talking about anybody communicating and of course, those that went into the Capitol attempting to overthrow this. And they know that. Marco Rubio knows that. Ronna McDaniel knows that. All these folks know it. But they're trying to kind of pass around it because they don't want to tick off the base. OK, but they also don't want appear -appear to be too in there with Donald Trump, and that's the game. But the truth is, this is a moment where we have to choose. We have to take definitive lines and it's starting to shape up. It's starting to happen, but everybody should have to take a position.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Congressman, thank you for your time today. We'll be back in a moment.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: Inflation went up again in January, and there is growing pressure on the Federal Reserve to increase interest rates in order to cool down the economy. Mary Daly is president and CEO of the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank. Good morning.
FEDERAL RESERVE BANK OF SAN FRANCISCO PRESIDENT MARY DALY: Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know, we say consumer prices are at the highest level in 40 years. I mean, if you look at certain items like car prices, they're up more than 40 percent compared to where they were last year. Energy is up 27 percent. Bacon up 18 percent. I mean, you've said inflation is going to get worse before it gets better. What do consumers need to be bracing for and what needs to be done to get this under control?
DALY: So first, it is very true that inflation is too high and is really hitting the pocketbooks of average Americans across a wide range of categories. The Federal Reserve is actively focused on this. As you know, we've talked about changing our policy stance, raising rates as early as March, which would certainly be something I would support it barring any surprises. And that's really meant to take some of the accommodation out of the economy and help inflation come back down to a place where people don't have to worry about the price of bacon or the price of used cars. But as you know that we're not the only part of this puzzle. We also have to get supply chains repaired and we have to get back out of our homes after COVID and start talking about service consumption, not just goods consumption.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You said you do not favor a half a percent increase in interest rates in March. What do you favor?
DALY: So, I look at the data and I see that it is obvious that we need to pull some of the accommodation out of the economy. But history tells us with Fed policy that abrupt and aggressive action can actually have a destabilizing effect on the very growth and price stability we're trying to achieve. So, what I would favor is moving in March and then watching, measuring, being very careful about what we see ahead of us and then taking the next interest rate increase when it seems the best place to do that. And that could be in the next meeting, or it could be a meeting away. But either way, the most important thing is to be measured at our pace and importantly, data dependent.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Measured in your pace. The financial markets are anticipating six to seven rate hikes in the year ahead. Is that the kind of tempo you foresee?
DALY: Well, I think it's too early to call. Really, you want. I mean, you talk about it. We had the – we have Ukraine right now, geopolitical risk. We are just coming out of our homes after Omicron. We hope that the virus will stay at bay, but we have to watch. We have another print before the March meeting on both the employment, the jobs report and inflation. All of those things are very important because before we make any pronouncements about exactly what we'd be doing on this year, I think what every American wants to know and deserves to hear is that we're on this and we're going to take those data in and get the accommodation right sized for the economy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, I mean, one of your colleagues at the Kansas City Fed has said current monetary policy is out of sync with the economy. The Fed is still injecting some emergency support measures here that, you know, because of the pandemic. Can you continue to do this when inflation is at seven and a half percent? Is this just about rate hikes to something or need to happen?
DALY: That's a terrific question, and you're right, we are continuing to taper asset purchases, but those will be complete by the early March. And markets understand that we're just doing that to ensure that we have a predictable decline in our purchases, so we don't dislocate financial markets. If you look at financial markets, they've already priced in the removal of that part of our accommodation, that injection as you referred to it. And they've also priced in rate increases over the coming year. So, I think markets and households in all of my contacts in the business community that I speak to you regularly, they understand that the Fed is moving on the policy path and adjusting it so that we get it right sized for the economy we have.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You mentioned geopolitical risk. The Federal Reserve chair has mentioned the crisis in Eastern Europe as a potential risk. How should people at home understand that? I mean, the White House is vowing to wage financial war on Russia here. They're cautioning U.S. businesses to be prepared about potential blowback from cyber-attacks. How do you foresee this playing out?
DALY: Well, any time, as you know, that we have geopolitical risk, it creates uncertainty, and Americans are already facing quite a bit of uncertainty. uncertainty about when COVID is ever going to leave our shores. Uncertainty about how the economy is going. So, this is just another factor and uncertainty we know affects consumer sentiment and ultimately affects consumer demand. So, what I think businesses – I know businesses in my district are thinking about is cautious optimism. They're bullish on our U.S. economy. They're bullish on coming out of the pandemic strong. But they're also very aware that we're not out of concerns yet, and we have many things in our future that we have to balance.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, is that an argument against taking emergency action before March? Is that a prediction that energy prices, you know, how do you see the risk that we're facing right now?
DALY: So, I see risks on both sides, if we act to aggressively, then we could actually add to Americans uncertainty now they have to worry about whether the Fed is being too aggressive and if we act too slowly, then of course we we have accommodation that's too much for the economy. So that's why this balanced approach I we might look at it. I see March as an appropriate time to raise the interest rate, and then we have to take in all of the information that you've mentioned and make the right decision at the right time for the economy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mary Daly, thank you very much for your analysis. Thank you. We'll be right back.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: That's it for us today. Thank you for watching.
Until next week, for FACE THE NATION, I'm Margaret Brennan.
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