Face the Nation transcripts September 1, 2013: Kerry, McCain, Kaine, and Chambliss
(CBS News) Below is a transcript of "Face the Nation" on September 1, 2013, hosted by CBS News' Major Garrett. Guests include: Secretary of State John Kerry, Sens. John McCain, R-Ariz., Tim Kaine, D-Va., and Saxby Chambliss, R-Ga., and CBS News' Elizabeth Palmer.
GARRETT: Today on Face the Nation, President Obama says he's decided to attack Syria for using chemical weapons, but now says congress must authorize the attack first.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It should not be an open-ended intervention. We would not put boots on the ground. Here's my question for every member of Congress and every member of the global community, what message will we send if a dictator can gas hundreds of children to death in plain sight and pay no price?
GARRETT: Will a divided Congress agree to a new Middle East war, even a short one? Secretary of State John Kerry will be here to make the president's case. Then we'll talk to three key Senators, including Arizona Republican John McCain, plus Georgia Republican Saxby Chambliss, and Virginia Democrat Tim Kaine. And we'll get the latest from Syria's capital of Damascus with Elizabeth Palmer. It's all ahead on Face the Nation.
ANNOUNCER: And now from CBS News in Washington, Face the Nation with Bob Schieffer. Substituting for Bob Schieffer, CBS news chief White House correspondent Major Garrett.
GARRETT: Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation. Secretary of State John Kerry joins us from the State Department. Mr. Secretary, good morning.
KERRY: Good morning, Major.
GARRETT: Now, Mr. Secretary, I know you believe the president's decision to seek congressional authorization is courageous, but isn't it bowing to a political reality that had been communicated to the president late this week that there would be significant congressional backlash if he didn't give congress a role, and that backlash, in part, reflected the inability of the administration to make its case this past week?
KERRY: Major, I disagree with that premise on all accounts. The fact is the president clearly had sufficient case presented to the American people that Assad had engaged in an outrageous crime against humanity and that it was vital to take steps. But I think the president realized in consultations with the congress that people wanted to weigh in, and he believed after thinking about it, that the United States of America is much stronger when we act in concert. Rather than have the debate after an attack be all about our constitutional process or did the president abuse his power or was it correct and have weeks of sort of being torn apart about that, the president felt it was much more important for us to act with unity of purpose and in a concerted way. I think this is not just a courageous decision, I think it's the right decision. Since when it is wrong for the president of the United States to ask the congress, the elected body that represents of people of America, to weigh in? I think it's important and I think we will be stronger for it.
GARRETT: But as you know, Secretary Kerry, at the White House all week there was this intense sense of urgency about a response, and about a punishment, about immediately upholding what was said over and over again is an international norm. Now that has been delayed for a couple of weeks at least. Are you in any way disappointed that your advocacy for a swift response was overridden?
KERRY: Wrong. I did not advocate that the response had to be swift. In fact, I often said we needed to take time to do certain things. I think that-- you know, I'm not going to go into the deliberative process and tell you what I said or someone said to the president of the United States. But I will tell you that there was an appropriate, deliberative process by which we made -- had a discussion as to whether or not there ought to be some kind of military action. The question of when and how is entirely the president of the United States. And until he makes that decision, no decision is made. So I didn't feel -- no, on the contrary, the president called me on a Friday evening -- or I can't remember, he called me in the evening, and went through his thinking. He looked for different points of view from people, and he made his decision. And I think it's the right decision. The president has decided to take military action. Now, he also decided that it would be much stronger for our country and have much greater impact and allow us much greater latitude going forward in terms of how we address Syria if we have the congress of the United States backing it. He also felt that that was a very important message, if you will, to Iran, to North Korea, and to others not only about our Democratic process but most importantly that we are prepared to uphold the norms of international behavior as a country, and that we are united behind that, and that that gives greater impact to whatever choices we might face in other places in the future.
GARRETT: From now until this vote is conducted, will this be your top priority? And will it be the president's top priority, to get this vote won in Congress?
KERRY: Well, of course it is critical that we go through the process of explaining to congress. But each day that goes by, Major, this case is getting stronger. I mean, today I'm at liberty to tell that you we now have samples back from first responders in east Damascus. Those samples of hair and blood have been tested, and they have reported positive for signatures of sarin. So we are now getting a stronger case each day, and I think that makes even more compelling that the congress of the United States be counted with the president in this effort so that Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, all of our friend and allies in the region, will know that the United States is acting in concert in a way that really sends a powerful message about our credibility, about our intentions to uphold international norms, and that will have an impact on other decisions down the road. And I'm very explicit about it with respect to Iran and North Korea or others. The credibility of the United States is on the line here. And I believe the congress will do the right thing.
GARRETT: Mr. Secretary, Elizabeth Palmer who is with us in Damascus, has talked to some in the Syrian opposition. And she talked to the spokesperson for the Syrian military council who told her yesterday, and I quote, "we no longer count on America or any other country. We only count on ourselves and our rebels. We now realize that the whole world is mocking us, mocking our feelings and mocking our blood." Is this delay a mocking of the Syrian opposition and the blood it shed to try to oust the Syrian regime?
KERRY: Of course not. This delay is a serious intent by the president of the United States to seek the strongest position possible for military action that was directed specifically at the Assad regime in order to deter and degrade the use of chemical weapons. It is also a period of time during which we can build a stronger approach with our allies. We can tweak and refocus some of our energies on support for the opposition. And I hope that kind of comment will -- will be digested carefully by the members of congress who will recognize that that will be the result if they don't support the president in the effort to uphold this international norm. So I believe that -- and I talked yesterday with the president of the opposition, with President Jarba. I hope he understands the seriousness of purpose here. We will do a better job, and in fact work with important voices like John McCain and Lindsey Graham and others who believe more should be done. I believe there is a way to support the opposition and, in effect, come up with a stronger approach and a stronger presentation of America's determination here.
GARRETT: Mr. Secretary, you're saying something, and I want to make sure I pin you down accurately on this. A couple of things, the opposition has also said they hope this debate will open the way for more direct, covert arming of the opposition which, as you know, still hasn't arrived. MREs and medical kits have, but weapons haven't. They want weapons to come with this authorization. And are you suggesting that if congress goes ahead and authorizes this, this will be a more forceful, memorable military strike than it would have been had the president acted alone?
KERRY: No, what I'm saying is -- what I'm saying is, Major, is that -- first of all, I can't -- and I'm not going to discuss what may or may not be happening in terms of any kind of convert program. But I will assure you the president has made the commitment, he's announced it publicly, that he intends to provide additional support to the opposition. The president has drawn a clear line. He is not seeking to have America assume responsibility for Syria's civil war. He does not intend to put boots on the ground. He is not going to envelope the United States inside Syria's civil struggle. But he has committed to help the opposition, and he has stated unequivocally that Assad has lost all legitimacy and cannot conceivably continue to govern ultimately Syria. The president is committed, through the Geneva negotiation process and the implementation of the original Geneva communique, to have a transition government in Syria and to help support the effort to get there.
GARRETT: Mr. Secretary, thank you very much for joining us on Face the Nation.
KERRY: Thank you.
GARRETT: Joining us now one of the top critics of the administration's handling of the entire situation in Syria, Arizona Republican Senator John McCain. Senator McCain, thank you very much for joining us. I know you want to unpack some of the things you heard from Secretary Kerry, but first I want to ask you, if the vote were held tomorrow, would it pass the United States Senate? And are you in a position now to support this authorization?
MCCAIN: I don't know the answer to that. But a case needs to be made, and I would suggest that case be made to the American people as well who are -- I understand they're very skeptical. They really haven't had the information I think they need to make a decision of this magnitude to move forward with whatever military actions we may be taking.
GARRETT: So to be clear you're not sure it would pass? And you're not sure you could support it?
MCCAIN: We're in a bit of dilemma here because I think Senator Lindsey Graham and I and others will be wanting a strategy, a plan, a -- rather than just we're going to launch some cruise missiles and -- and that's it -- and even worry more when the president's chief of staff -- chairman of the Joint Chiefs -- says, "Well, it doesn't matter when we strike." Well, that's not a military action then. That's a symbolic action. So we need to have a strategy and a plan, and that plan, in our view -- the best way to eliminate the threat of Bashar Assad's continued use of chemical weapons -- and, by the way, we know he's used them a number of times before -- would be the threat of his removal from power. And that, I believe, has to be part of -- of what we tell the American people. But, finally, the consequences of the Congress of the United States overriding a decision of the president of the United States of this magnitude are really very, very serious. And already, we're sending a bad signal to Iran, to North Korea, to Bashar Assad. But if we overrode the president's decision and did nothing, then, you know...
GARRETT: That sounds like you're a conditional "yes."
MCCAIN: No, I want to see the plan and a strategy that this will achieve some goals that we need to achieve.
GARRETT: The president...
MCCAIN: But I also am aware of the failure of Congress to endorse this plan, that the signal that it sends to the world, in a very dangerous world, where we've also lost enormous credibility -- you mentioned the Syrian -- Free Syrian Army. I can tell you their morale has been devastated. Bashar and his people are euphorious -- euphoric. The Iranians are happy. When the president of the United States said that he was going -- that it was a red line, he didn't say that it's a red line and, by the way, I'm going to have to seek the approval of Congress. He said it was a red line and the United States of America would act. And that is a big difference. And that's one of the reasons why this is so problematic.
GARRETT: Was it a tactical mistake for the president now to come to Congress? Should he have acted already?
MCCAIN: Look, if he had acted, as Ronald Reagan did, as Bill Clinton did, as a number of other presidents did, in compliance basically with the War Powers Act, I think that he could have done that. And that would have been a decision made by the president. But at the eleventh hour, when the strikes -- leaks have been massive and unprecedented -- the strikes are already planned; we know what ships are there; we know how many missiles -- I mean, unprecedented leaking, then a reversal at this point, I think, has -- has serious consequences as far as steadfastness and purpose of this administration.
GARRETT: The president of the United States called you yesterday and has asked you to come to the White House tomorrow. Tell us more.
MCCAIN: Well, the president said he wanted to talk with me and with Lindsey Graham and, I know, many other members of Congress on this issue. I am very glad to do that. But we have to have a plan. It has to be a strategy. It can't just be, in my view, pinprick cruise missiles. And, by the way, as we know, the Syrians are moving their people around and adjusting to the possibilities of a well-leaked attack. And so we need that. And we need to go to the American people with it. And this is a horrible -- two years ago, this was much easier. We've let it deteriorate to the point where it's extremely difficult and we have now a regional conflict. And those who believe that this conflict can be contained are wrong. Already, Jordan is destabilized, Lebanon. Syria has become a haven for Al Qaida, with Syria and Iraq, and it's unraveling. The whole region is going to be engulfed by this, and that would be a threat to the United States vital national security.
GARRETT: You've said this authorization should say more and be more specific about ousting Assad from power. What this authorization actually says is that, through a negotiated political settlement, this will be resolved. The United States, through Secretary of State Kerry, this morning called him Hitler and Hussein and a murderous thug. Based on your experience with history...
MCCAIN: And he's all of that.
GARRETT: ... do those types of people negotiate their own absence from power? Is that a credible approach?
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: Only when Bashar Assad believes that he is losing. Right now, thanks to 5,000 Hezbollah, thanks to Iran, thanks to Russia, these arms shipments that are pouring in -- and we haven't given the Free Syrian Army a single weapon. I mean, this is shameful. It's shameful, while a million children are now refugees.
GARRETT: So, to be precise, do you believe this authorization should be redrafted...
MCCAIN: No, no. No, no, I don't.
GARRETT: And, say, be more explicit about arming the opposition and ousting Assad from power?
MCCAIN: I'm not sure exactly how the resolution should be written, but I do know it should have room for us to provide assistance to those who are struggling against overwhelming odds, right now, including chemical weapons attacks.
GARRETT: And do you think that is part of the implied message an authorization from Congress would be, that it would give the president more latitude than he currently thinks he has to do whatever is necessary to win the Syrian... (CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: I think what it would say is that we have a plan and a strategy, and we have not had one for the last two and a half years.
GARRETT: And you don't believe there's one currently?
MCCAIN: Of course not. Of course not. I mean, can -- when the only thing we've given these brave people who are dying by the droves are MREs that are about to expire? That's the kind of assistance? While the arms shipments are flown in every single day to -- from Iran and from Russia -- by the way, the ones from Iran over Iraq. The killing and slaughter is -- goes on mercilessly. And, by the way, the people who are doing the fighting and are the major force are moderates. And anybody who tells you anything different, come with me to Syria, and I'll introduce you to 'em.
GARRETT: Senator McCain, always a pleasure to have you on "Face the Nation." Thank you very much for your perspective.
MCCAIN: Thanks, Major.
GARRETT: For some more congressional perspective we're now joined by Republican Senator Saxby Chambliss, who is in St. Simons Island, Georgia, and Virginia Democratic Senator Tim Kaine, who joins us from Richmond. Senator Kaine, I'd like to start with you. If this vote were held tomorrow, would it pass and would you support it, sir?
KAINE: Major, I think, if we have this vote, I am confident that Congress will rally behind the important principle that the use of chemical weapons violating an international norm that's been in place since the 1920s is unacceptable and that we need to engage in action, even military action, with international allies to stop it. So I believe, when that case is made, and it's not only made to Congress but to the American public, I believe that we will rally behind the principle that use of chemical weapons is wrong and it can't go unpunished.
GARRETT: Senator Chambliss, do you agree? And what are the ramifications you fear most about an authorization that leads to a military strike in Syria?
CHAMBLISS: Well, first of all, I'm glad we're going to have this debate in Congress. I was supportive of the president taking early action, but he hasn't done that. And now that it's been delayed this much, I think that Congress does have a role to play here, so the debate should be interesting. But here's the problem that I see, Major. John McCain just said -- and he's absolutely right -- the president has an obligation to make his case to the Congress, but he also has an obligation to make this case to the American people. My constituents are war-weary. They don't want to see us get involved in this. For the last two years the policy of the administration has been regime change. Several weeks ago, that changed to trying to tilt the balance more in favor of the opposition. Now, if you read this resolution that was sent by the White House to the speaker yesterday, it seems that that policy has changed again and that military action is being asked to deter further use of chemical weapons. So the president has an obligation to make his case. He has not made that case at this point in time. And the debate in Congress is going to be really interesting.
GARRETT: Senator Kaine, do you believe there's a coherent strategy before the American public? And if not, do you believe the president is obligated to go before the American public in something akin to an Oval Office address to explain not only the history but the motives and the likely outcome of an engagement in Syria?
KAINE: Major, that's exactly why the president's decision to come before Congress is so powerful and I'm so happy that he's done it. Because how does the American public get educated? The best way to educate the American public about a matter like this is to have that full debate in Congress that the framers of the Constitution intended. They intended that, before, or when a nation initiates military action, it should be with the approval of Congress. That's in the Constitution, but it reflects a very important judgment as well, and that is this: we should not be sending servicemen and women into military conflict if they don't have complete confidence that the nation's political leadership is behind them. And so what this debate in Congress will do is it will educate the American public about the important principles at stake against use of chemical weapons, and it will help them understand and help Congress come to a consensus about what needs to be done. I agree with Secretary Kerry. We are strong when we act together, but we are -- when we're divided -- if the president were to do something without congressional support, it's just not fair to the men and women we asked to fight our battles to send them in not knowing whether the American public or Congress backs them up.
GARRETT: Senator Kaine, are Virginians, as Senator Saxby Chambliss just said, as Georgians, war-weary? And do you think there really is anything conceptually valid in the assertion that there can be a limited military engagement in Syria?
KAINE: Major, my citizens -- Virginia is so connected to the military, whether the active duty populations, all the military leadership at the Pentagon. We've got ships based out of Norfolk that are already on station in the Middle East and more likely to go. We are very connected to the military. And, sure, after 12 years of war post-9/11, folks do have a sense of fatigue and even a sense of skepticism about assertions with regard to presence of weapons of mass destruction, and that puts a burden on Congress' shoulder and the president's as well to make the case. This is a challenge-- you know, I have been maintaining we need to update the War Powers Act of 1973 because we've gotten sloppy in this. The presidents often overreach, and Congress often wants to evade responsibility, evade votes rather than accept the consequences. I think this could be a very historic and important debate, and, again, if we can reach a consensus, we will be much stronger as a nation and the likelihood of success of our actions will be, I think, great.
GARRETT: Senator Chambliss, the secretary of state said the credibility of the American government is on the line. Has this been a credible week for President Obama as a commander in chief?
CHAMBLISS: Well, I'm afraid that what is shown is there is weakness there. And, you know, the world is watching. Our allies are --
(CROSSTALK)
GARRETT: How would you define that weakness, Senator?
CHAMBLISS: -- adversaries. Well, I think the weakness is that he's -- he said again yesterday, "I'm going to take military action." Well, the world it saying you know, your predecessors, whether Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan -- we could go back even further -- when something like this has happened and the national security of the United States has been put at risk, then presidents lead. In a time of crisis, presidents make tough, hard decisions and they lead. And there's weakness here on the part of the president. So I think it's not been a good week for him. But he's made this decision to come to Congress, and it's going to be a very, very tough debate. And going back to your question of whether or not it can pass, I would say if the president cannot make his case to Congress, then it's not going to pass. He's got to come out and really be in depth with respect to the intelligence that we know is out there. He's got to be in depth with respect to what type of military action is going to be taken and what is our current strategy and how is this military strike impact that particular strategy.
GARRETT: Senator Chambliss, you'll have the last word. Senator Kaine, Senator Chambliss, thank you very much. We'll be back in one minute with a report from Syria.
KAINE: Thanks, Major.
GARRETT: We're back with CBS News correspondent Elizabeth Palmer, who is in the Syrian capital of Damascus. Elizabeth, I understand you have fresh reaction to President Obama's decisions from the Syrian opposition.
ELIZABETH PALMER, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they just released a communique from Istanbul, where they're based, and I quote -- they're calling on Congress to take the historic responsibility and endorse the Obama administration's efforts to stop Assad's killing machine. But this communique goes one step further. It says that no military action by the U.S. should take place without proper supplying-- that is, arming the opposition forces. They are clearly hoping to take advantage of any American military action by not only having this Syrian military weakened, first of all, by the strikes, but then to be properly armed to go in and turn the tide of what has become a stalemated war.
GARRETT: Elizabeth Palmer in Damascus, thank you very much. And we'll be right back.
GARRETT: That's it for us today. Bob will be back next Sunday. I'm Major Garrett. Thank you for watching FACE THE NATION.