Face the Nation transcripts May 5, 2013: Benghazi and gay athletes - Issa, Rogers, Ruppersberger

(CBS News) Below is a transcript of "Face the Nation" on May 5, 2013, hosted by CBS News' Bob Schieffer. Guests include: Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., and Rep. Dutch Ruppersberger, D-Md. Plus, the changing face of sports with Billie Jean King, Martina Navratilova, Brendon Ayanbadejo, Esera Tuaolo, Ted Leonsis, Domonique Foxworth, Chris Stone and William Rhoden.

Bob Schieffer: Today only on Face the Nation, startling new details about the Benghazi attack from the number two American official in Libya and the impact of gay athletes on American sports and American life. It's been almost eight months since the attacks on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi that killed us ambassador Christopher Stevens and three other Americans. We'll get new details today and more insight into the stunning contradictions between the president of Libya and Ambassador to the U.N. Susan Rice when they appeared after the attack on Face the Nation.

Libyan President Mohammed Magariaf: This was preplanned, predetermined.

Susan Rice: We did not have information at present that leads us to conclude that this was premeditated or preplanned.

Schieffer: We'll tell you some of what career diplomat Greg Hicks, who was in Libya during the attack told investigators for House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa. We'll hear from Issa and the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee Mike Rogers and the committee's ranking Democrat, Dutch Ruppersberger. On page two, we'll talk about the emergence of gay athletes in professional sports with an all-star panel including tennis legends Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova. Two NFL stars pushing for gay rights, former Baltimore Ravens linebacker Brendon Ayanbadejo and former NFL defensive lineman Esera Tuaolo, plus Ted Leonsis, owner of three Washington sports teams, the Wizards, Capitals, and Mystics. The president of the NFL players association, Domonique Foxworth, Chris Stone, managing editor of Sports Illustrated and William Rhoden of the New York Times. A lot of news, but this is Face the Nation.

Announcer: From CBS News in Washington, Face the Nation with Bob Schieffer.

Bob Schieffer: Good morning again. Well we start with the story that won't go away. On September 11th of last year, the American compound in Benghazi was attacked. The US Ambassador to Libya, Chris Stevens, and three other Americans were killed. Exactly what happened that night has been investigated by various agencies and congressional committees but remains a source of controversy. And today there is new information raising questions about whether there was a cover-up by the State Department to deflect criticism that it had ignored requests for more security for its people in Libya. Republican Congressman Darrell Issa heads the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, one of the committees that's been investigating. This week they'll hear testimony from Greg Hicks, a 22-year Foreign Service diplomat who was the number two U.S. official in Libya who was talking to Washington during and after the attack. Chairman Issa is here today to reveal some of the startling excerpts from Greg Hicks' interview with his investigators. Surprisingly, this will be the first time anyone has heard publicly from Hicks, and as you will see, his story is totally at variance with what some American officials were saying in public on this broadcast five days after the attack. The administration claimed the attack grew out of a spontaneous demonstration provoked by protests in Egypt. Greg Hicks told investigators that was simply not true. Part of what he said:

Greg Hicks: I thought it was a terrorist attack from the get-go. I think everybody in the mission thought it was a terrorist attack from the beginning.

Question: ...Did you ever have any indication that there was a protest, a popular protest, outside the mission in Benghazi?

Greg Hicks: No question.

Question: And if there was such a protest, would that have been reported?:

Greg Hicks: Absolutely... for there to have been a demonstration on Chris Stevens' front door and him not to have reported it is unbelievable.

Bob Schieffer: So Mr. Issa, why would the administration put out a storyline that was so different from what US officials in Libya knew immediately?

Darrell Issa: Bob, that's the great question . We can't find a classified reason for it, we can't find a diplomatic reason for it. Understand that Gregory Hicks, who became the charge, became the acting Ambassador, witnessed our relationship with Libya on this show go the wrong way. Because on this show, Susan Rice says, it was a protest. Well the President, the elected President saying, no it's a terrorist attack. You can't insult a foreign leader in a greater way than happened literally here, just those few days later.

Bob Schieffer: But do you think they were trying to cover up the fact that the State Department had turned down requests for more security, that had been coming in from the diplomats on the ground there. Is that what this is about?

Darrell Issa: Well perhaps in part. But it does seem like it's bigger than that. There was this normalization, sort of a mentality, where you had to pretend like things were safe. The war on terror was over and that may have gone in a great way to getting people to say well, we can't call this a terrorist attack because then, the war on terror is back alive. Well, Bob, the war on terror is very much alive. Whether it's Chechen nationals that come here or it's what's going on in Syria, it's Al Qaeda around the world and that's the reality that hopefully state department people will feel at least they are being properly protected after this attack.

Bob Schieffer: The Weekly Standard reported that the first reports that went out from the CIA, including the assertion from the U.S. government that they knew there were Islamic extremists with ties to al Qaeda participating in this attack but after seeing the first version of the talking points, the Weekly Standard says, a ranking official at the state department who they have identified as Victoria Nuland who is a spokesman for the department sent a message, they were worried that members of congress would use the talking points to criticize the State Department for not paying attention to agency warnings about needing more security. And it was after that, that these different versions of the talking points came out. Can you confirm that?

Darrell Issa: Well I think your next witness can talk to many of the things that have been kept away from us. These talking points and how they changed. But we know one thing, that the talking points were right and then the talking points were wrong. The CIA knew it was a terrorist attack, the Deputy Chief of Mission, Gregory Hicks, knew it was a terrorist attack, the Ambassador, before he died, one of the last words he ever said is, we're under attack.

Bob Schieffer: Well let me just go back to these questions that you asked of Greg Hicks.

Bob Schieffer: Five days after that attack, THE UN Ambassador Susan Rice appeared on all five Sunday talk shows, including this one. But on this broadcast her interview was preceded by our interview with the new President of Libya, Mohammed al-Magariaf. I'm going to run a clip now of what he told us and what she said in response, which totally contradicted him.

Bob Schieffer: Was this a long-planned attack, as far as you know? Or what do you know about that?

El-Magariaf: The way these perpetrators acted and moved, I think we - and their choosing the specific date for this so-called demonstration, I think we have no - this leaves us with no doubt that this was preplanned, predetermined.

Susan Rice: What our assessment is, as of the present, was that in fact it began spontaneously in Benghazi as a reaction to what had transpired some hours earlier in Cairo//(cut)

Bob Schieffer: But you do not agree with him that this was something that had been plotted out several months ago?

Susan Rice: We do not have information at present that leads us to conclude that this was pre-mediated or preplanned.

Bob Schieffer: Now here is what Mr. Hicks said about Secretary Rice's answers that morning. He said:

Greg Hicks: ... The net impact of what has transpired is the spokesperson of the most powerful country in the world has basically said that the President of Libya is either a liar or doesn't know what he's talking about. The impact of that is immeasurable. Magariaf has just lost face in front of not only his own people, but the world... my jaw hit the floor as I watched this... I've never been as embarrassed in my life, in my career as on that day... I never reported a demonstration; I reported an attack on the consulate. Chris's last report, if you want to say his final report, is, "Greg, we are under attack." ... It is jaw-dropping that - to me that - how that came to be.

Bob Schieffer: Mr. Hicks went on to tell your investigators that no one from the State Department contacted him before Ambassador Rice's appearance. He said:

Greg Hicks: ... I was personally known to one of Ambassador Rice's staff members... I could have been called, and, you know, the phone call could have been, hey, Greg, Ambassador Rice is going to say blah, blah, blah, blah and I could have said, no, that's not the right thing. That phone call was never made.

Bob Schieffer: Again, what was going on here?

Darrell Issa: Well clearly, there was a political decision to say something different than what was reasonable to say. And I think Bob that one of the tragedies of this is it took three weeks to get our FBI in. Well, when you tell the President of Libya, who by the way went to Benghazi at personal risk, did that broadcast from Benghazi, as a courageous act-if you tell him he's wrong, that it's not terrorism, what a surprise that you have a hard time getting FBI to the crime scene. If anything, we may have compromised our ability to know what really happened there as far as catching the culprits, because more weeks went by with no FBI on the ground.

Bob Schieffer: Well, let me just read something more from the interview, which as you now know, and we stress, this was Mr. Hicks' opinion. In response to questions from investigators about the impact of Secretary Rice's statements, he said:

Greg Hicks: ... I firmly believe that the reason it took us so long to get the FBI to Benghazi is because of those Sunday talk shows.

Bob Schieffer: Which is, basically, what you're saying.

Darrell Issa: And ambassadors know that the one thing you don't do is contradict your host, especially at a time when you need their cooperation. This was a fatal error to our relationship at least for a period of time and we can't find the purpose. Secretary Clinton should have been above all else, the person who was on the same sheet of music with the Libyan government and she wasn't.

Bob Schieffer: Well, Mr. Hicks' had also testified that he had called Beth Jones, the Acting Assistant Secretary for Near Eastern Affairs at the state department, the morning after these Sunday shows and he asked her,

Gregory Hicks: Why did Ambassador Rice say that?

And Beth Jones told him, "I don't know." So Mr. Hicks is saying that a key State Department official said she didn't know why the Ambassador has indicated the attacks were spontaneous.

Darrell Issa: Not only that, he indicated in his testimony that these were unwelcome. That he felt very much like Beth Jones didn't want to hear from him, and in the days and weeks to come, that continued. One of the amazing things is, here you have the person on the ground who probably, of anyone in Tripoli knows more about what was going on, he's never seen the classified ARB report. They have not let him see it. So when he says that that is a flawed report, he says so with the same information we have publicly--

Bob Schieffer: This is the State Department's investigation?

Darrell Issa: The State department's questionable investigation because it clearly meets a statutory requirement to do an investigation but it doesn't answer any real questions or place blame on people who were involved in this failure.

Bob Schieffer: It does seem to call attention to the actions of some very low level people in the administrant but as the Weekly Standard was reporting, apparently the State Department spokesman, if their version of this is correct, she was worried that this was going to reflect badly on people above her.

Darrell Issa: No question at all. And certainly, Patrick Kennedy, a Senate confirmed career professional, is at a minimum very much at the center of knowing everything, either speaking to or not speaking to Secretary Clinton, but in testimony on October 10th, he basically pushed back on everything and even implied that somehow it was a lack of funding or other issues when in fact, clearly, he was at the table during what we believe at this point is a misinformation campaign, at best, and a cover up at worst.

Bob Schieffer: So, Mr. Hicks' will be your probably main witness when you open these hearings on Wednesday. Who else will be there?

Darrell Issa: Well, Mark Thompson is another career professional, former marine, counterterrorism expert who will testify more than anything else that shortly after this began, he got locked out of the room even though he was the individual who was supposed to react to these kinds of things. Again, part of some process of denial that it was, it could be terrorism. And then Eric Nordstrom, who was the person who was the canary in the coal mine, and if you will, that was pushing for more security saying that this was a problem, leading up to and shortly before the attack, and we believe this gets us back to, where we were on October 10th. It takes us forward to the next step of the unanswered question, even after we gave the State Department plenty of time to give those answers.

Bob Schieffer: Well, as we understand it now the State Department is reviewing its investigation now, I guess that comes at your request.

Darrell Issa: It, it does. But this is one of those things where we gave plenty of time. We stayed out of the politics of it, we let them, the process go through. And it left us with more questions than answers and certainly it doesn't give the most key answer that I think we all want is, if we knew it was terrorism, if the President said, at least in his debates, that in the Rose Garden, he called it an act of terrorism, then why is it they deny terrorism essentially rebuking the President of Libya on your show a few days later.

Bob Schieffer: The story still remains: Why were the talking points changed? Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for being with us this morning. We'll look forward to those hearings. And we'll be back in just a minute.

Bob Schieffer: We're back now for some reaction to these developments we've been talking about with two key members of Congress who are just back from the middle east. So we want to talk about Syria as well. House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers and the top Democrat on the Committee Dutch Ruppersberger. Gentlemen, I just first have to ask you, Congressman, what's your reaction to this what we're hearing here?

Mike Rogers: On the Benghazi investigation?

Bob Schieffer: Yes.

Mike Rogers: Well, each committee has taken up the charge within their lane. So our committee is doing the intelligence piece of this and we issued an interim report, meaning the investigation's not over, and we're finding that there are more individuals who are willing to come forward as the investigation unfolds. So there are some areas, obviously, that are concerning. I will tell that you it's very clear to me that there was some catastrophic decisions made by folks in the State Department that contributed to the death-- meaning they didn't take the appropriate security.

Bob Schieffer: Well is that what it seems to you has happened here? They tried to change this story so they could avoid criticism that they had disregarded requests for more security out there?

Mike Rogers: Well, the investigation is still ongoing. I can tell you just from the interim place, somebody made some very bad decisions on the security posture in Libya. It was deteriorating. The intelligence community did provide accurate information that the situation was deteriorating. It looked bad. It certainly didn't seem at this point in the investigation that the State Department even acknowledged that -- and went a different direction, that I think contributed to this.

Bob Schieffer: Congressman, you're the Ranking Democrat on Intelligence, what's your take?

Dutch Ruppersberger: Well, first thing, it was a very serious situation when we lose American lives. We're in the investigative stage right now. it's extremely important. I think we have to wait until the facts come through. I applaud the fact that there's an open hearing. You want to hear from both sides. What the important issue is, is that we look at why it happened, how it happened, and to make sure it doesn't happen again so we can protect our men and women who are in other parts of the world and who are in danger even now. The most important issue, though, too, and I think the preliminary report Mike was talking about, from an intelligence perspective -- which Mike and I oversee the intelligence community -- there was not an intelligence failure, that we didn't have information ahead of time as it related to this incident.

Bob Schieffer: In order words, what you're saying is we knew the security situation was pretty serious out there, and did the State Department, from what you can tell now, just ignore those calls for more help?

Dutch Ruppersberger: No I'm not saying that at all, that we knew. I'm saying we've got to get the facts. We have a large part of the world where -- we have people throughout the world who are attempting to work with other countries to protect American interests and that's very relevant and important. This was a very volatile area. Things changed as we went through. Just in the beginning, we were talking, there was an issue -- remember were the talking point changed? Did we change the situation? It was an attack. It was a volatile situation. A lot of same information that we receive is the - initially -- had to change and the information and talking points that went to Ambassador Rice, she used talking points that we all got in the very beginning, the first couple of days. I believe General Petraeus --

Bob Schieffer: But it appears those talking points were dead wrong.

Dutch Ruppersberger: At the time, as it turns out, it is and that's what an investigation is about. Let's get the facts. This should not be a partisan issue at all, this should be to get the facts, an open issue, and to hear from everybody. And when you hear allegations that people are told not to talk, I would hope those issues would come out and if that's the case we should be held accountable.

Bob Schieffer: You're just back from the Middle East. New reports this morning: overnight, the Israelis bombed again in Syria. How is the situation there, Mr. Chairman?

Mike Rogers: I think it's deteriorating by the day. So you have Hezbollah is now moving troops, Hezbollah troops financed by Iran, across Syria. They're engaged in the fight to protect the Assad regime. You have the al-Nusra front which is an Al Qaeda front organization, in the thousands, showing up and they're arguing now if this continues you could have in excess of 10,000 foreign fighters pouring into the country across the course of the year. You have Hamas elements there. Everybody wants to get their hands on chemical and more sophisticated conventional weapons. Refugees destabilizing the entire region. This is as bad a situation I have seen in a long time that has -

Bob Schieffer: Have they escalated this? Did the Israelis do what they should have done? What do you think?

Dutch Ruppersberger: Well first thing, I can't discuss anything about the Israeli strikes, but I will say this: Israel has the right to defend themselves at all times and they're in a very volatile area. I agree with Mike Rogers, it is a serious situation, a serious situation in Syria. They're in a position now where if Assad, that regime, the Assad regime will go down eventually but what happens after that? As Mike said, you have the al Qaeda group, then you have the Hezbollah group, which is backed by Iran. When that situation, when he leaves, where are we going to be then?

Bob Schieffer: What does the United States do at this point?

Mike Rogers: I do think we have some option. We're going to have to play for the best worst option at this point. That's the - That's the bad news. We've waited such a long time, so our Arab League partners are already in Syria and trying to provide help to the opposition. I argue, with US leadership -- and again this is not boots on the ground --US leadership through intelligence and training and other things, and coordination of their activities which they're asking for, could be hugely helpful to bringing the regime down quicker, number one, and try to at least have a stabilizing force exist after this happens, and that's our biggest concern.

Bob Schieffer: President Obama said at one point if they found out that the Syrians were using nerve gas or chemical weapons on their own people, that would be a game changer, that would be a red line. Congressman, do you think he's backed away from that now?

Dutch Ruppersberger: I don't think he's backed away, I think he understands that if we're going to be involved that we have to make sure that we all have, all the facts and information, but we can't be the sheriff for the whole world. We have our own issues right now: Iraq, Afghanistan, we have sequestration, those types of issues. So when we move, and make the move to get in, we have to do it with a coalition. The Arab coalition, the other countries in that area. We have resources that no other country has, and we have to make sure that we use them. Some of the resources that we have are the training of people fighting, and the intelligence. And also this issue about weapons: there are plenty of weapons in Syria right now on both sides. And it's a matter of coordinating those weapons and making sure they're used in the right way. Chemical weapons have - we have to deal with it, we will deal with it and we do have information that there are chemical weapons that have been used.

Mike Rogers: As we've been saying for some time now, we believe over the course of two years chemical weapons have been used. I think that's beyond a shadow of a doubt at this point. And we really don't want to be the sheriff, but we do want to be the coach. That's where we can bring the most impact. And why this is important: you have eight percent of the trade goes through the Suez Canal - and that's worldwide trade. If this spills out of control, and that's worldwide trade, imagine what impact that has on prices here at home, on the economic development here at home. It's spilling over in the region right now. And It's led by Iran.

Bob Schieffer: Would either of you consider setting up a no-fly zone using U.S. planes? You say no boots on the ground, but what about planes in the sky?

Mike Rogers: You can do a no-fly zone through better technology. You don't have to have planes flying over the sky. You need to knock out a few of those jet fighters when they're flying over, delivering munitions on civilians in Syria. We have ways to do that without exposing our planes. That's the kind of no fly zone that we can do and operate. And we do this through our partners, the Arab League, and that keeps boots from being on the ground. And I'll tell you it's a game changer, when airplanes and helicopters start falling out of the sky.

Bob Schieffer: Alright, gentlemen. I wish we could go on. I'll be back in a moment and I'll have some personal thoughts.

Bob Schieffer: From the passing of George Jones to Syria and the story we've just talked about, there was more news than we could process this week. But no story told us more about who we are than the story we'll talk about on page two--the coming out of basketball star Jason Collins who is gay. Whatever else we are, however toxic and broken our political system may be, we are still an ever evolving, inclusive people who admire honesty. Of course there are as many opinions about this as there are people but the news about this story is that it didn't cause all that much news--at least not all that much controversy. Most Americans accepted it and went on about their business. My grandchildren wouldn't know why it even made the news. Twenty years ago or even 10, that would not have been the case. Back in the 1960s as a young police reporter in Fort Worth, I remember the vice squad spent most of its time raiding gay bars. What a long way we are from that. Of course those were also the days when Jason would have had a hard time getting his picture in the paper--not because he was gay--but because he was black. We seldom put pictures or stories about black people on the front page unless they committed a crime. We've got a ways to go but we are an ever changing country and that has always been our strength. Jason Collins reminded us of that.

Bob Schieffer: Some of our stations are leaving us now, for most of you we'll be back with an all star sports panel with tennis legends Martina Navratalova and Billie Jean King and many other big names in the professional sports world. Stay with us.

Bob Schieffer: Welcome back to Face the Nation we are happy to be joined first by two of the world's greatest tennis players -- Martina Navratilova is in Miami this morning, Billie Jean King joins us from Omaha, Nebraska this morning. Billie Jean, let me just start with you, why was Jason Collins announcement such, get so much attention?

Billie Jean King: Well, I'm thrilled that Jason had the courage to do this Bob, but it's because gay rights right now are the civil rights issue of the 21st century. And finally, I think people are ready to hear him. Remember Glenn Burke, back in the 70s, and how people ostracized him, he was on the Oakland, and also the Dodgers, he was with them. And the Dodger management offered him $75,000 dollars to get married to a woman to cover up his homosexuality and it was just horrendous, the life that Glenn Burke had to put up with because he was so honest and forthright and he was the Jackie Robinson of our rights, of the gay issues. And no one listened to him. And he died very, very young, a broken person, so I don't - I don't think people realize, back in the-before really now and the last few years, and Martina can talk about it as well, is that people really made it difficult. The-it was so shame-based. We have to get rid of the fact that it's shame-based. And Jason Collins coming out is helping with that. I talked to him on Friday and he said it was so surreal when he came out, the way he's been treated and how wonderful it has been for him. And I'm just so happy for him. He sounded so happy, in fact, Friday night he said he was going out on his first date where he felt like a free man-

Bob Schieffer: Let me -

Billie Jean King: So I just, I just, Jason was so brave.

Bob Schieffer: Let me, let me talk to Martina a little bit too. You call this a game changer, how difficult was this for you when you made your orientation public?

Martina Navratilova: Well, you know, after coming to America from a-from a communist country and asking for political asylum and leaving my family behind, never knowing when I was ever going to see them again, being gay wasn't such a big deal. And for me it wasn't a big deal. It was a big deal to everybody else. But as a tennis player I could still play. I didn't have to worry about the front office or the coaches benching me because I was gay. I could still play my sport no matter what. It cost me a lot of money in endorsements and all that. Also, you have to remember that these endorsement-based deals have a moral clause in it - that back then, being gay was immoral, therefore you would lose your endorsements and professional athletes would not be able to be, be signed. They would get fired. So I had it easy in that way in that I could still play ball no matter what, and I was able to be myself and not really pay the price that way. I paid the price in different ways with the fans and the media and, and, and you know, a lot of sensationalism that wasn't pretty. But, still I could play tennis. No matter what.

Bob Schieffer: Do, do you all think it is more difficult for a male athlete to come out than for a woman? Billie Jean?

Martina Navratilova: Well, it seems to be the case, since there have been many more women that have come out, but I'm not sure exactly why the guys are hiding that much. Particularly again in, in sports like golf and tennis. We know they're there but I don't even-they're so far in the closet, I don't know who they are. Even in, in the world of tennis.

Bob Schieffer: Did you, Billie Jean, did you lose sponsors when you came out?

Billie Jean King: Yes. Yes, I was just getting ready to retire and I was outed. I had an affair with a woman and she outed me and I-my lawyer, my publicist and everyone told me not, not to say I way gay or bisexual or anything and I said I have to tell the truth. I, I was stayed up 48 hours arguing with my lawyer and my publicist, I have to have a press conference, I have to tell the truth. And they said, no, no, you can't do that. And I said, I have to do it. I said I have to be truthful. So, I told the truth, I lost my endorsements in 24 hours. It's the letter I got, or the sponsors, what they said to me that was really hurtful. And I remember talking to Martina the same year, this is 1981, so it's what, 32 years ago? In fact, I had my press conference May 11, 1981 to tell people the truth. And I had to fight with everybody to do that. And it was really difficult. And I remember Martina talking to me about that she was going to get outed by this reporter with the New York Daily News, and she also was just getting her citizenship at that time, so it was, it was very tumultuous times, I think for both of us. It was difficult, but, you know, the truth does set you free, Bob. The truth sets you free and I think the big difference now, compared to those days, is that people are ready to hear it to listen. No one cares. I'm excited about the Supreme Court in June voting on DOMA and Prop 8, that is, I mean, the LGBT community is so excited that people are finally accepting us. We can really be out there and be free and it's amazing in my lifetime to see the difference.

Bob Schieffer: Martina, do you think there will ever come a time when it doesn't matter? I mean, I was a little bit surprised and I must say, happily surprised that it didn't cause more of a commotion than it did. I mean, there were a lot of stories about it but not a great deal of controversy, at least in the first stories, did that surprise you a little bit?

Martina Navratilova: Not really. The times have changed. I think when President Obama came and - in favor of gay rights, a gay marriage, that really changed the tide. But we have to remember that this is - this has been a long time coming. We still don't have equal rights, I have been getting on Twitter, 'oh, why does this matter? I don't care,' which is kind of code for 'I really don't want to know,' but it does matter because in 29 states in this country you can still get fired for not just being gay but if your employer thinks that you're gay, you can still get fired. We don't have equal rights. So, it does matter, but the positive reaction has, I think it's going to help with the Supreme Court, I really do think that's going to make a difference. And finally, one of these days we will have equal rights and I think that day is not that far away.

Bob Schieffer: Well, I want to thank both of you for being with us this morning, go ahead --

Billie Jean King: Pres-President Obama's made such a difference.

Bob Schieffer: Alright well-

Billie Jean King: I'm sorry, President Obama has made the difference and his inauguration absolutely saying it like it is, he has set the tone for all of us and I really thank him as our leader.

Bob Schieffer: Alright, Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova, two of the greats. We'll be back to talk to a couple of guys in just a minute.

Bob Schieffer: And we're joined now by two top voices in the gay rights movement for the NFL, Super Bowl Champion Baltimore Raven, now free-agent, NFL linebacker Brendon Ayanbadejo, and Brendon I'm going to let you say your name for us because I've said it about six ways today and I apologize for that. He is a leader in a movement for gay rights and equality in sports. Esera Tuaolo was an NFL defensive lineman for nine years before he retired and announced he was gay. His book is called, "My Life in The Trenches: My Life As A Gay Man in The NFL." Esera, let me start with you, you came out after your career was over. Did you ever consider making the announcement while you were in the NFL?

Esera Tuaolo: Absolutely not. I did not, I didn't feel safe, back then, a decade ago, it was definitely a different time where playing in such a masculine environment, going to work every single day I didn't feel safe being true to myself. We are definitely living in different -

Bob Schieffer: Well did you-

Esera Tuaolo: Go ahead -

Bob Schieffer: Do you feel that being gay kept you from playing up to your full potential?

Esera Tuaolo: Most definitely. But, what kept me from playing to my full potential is what people need to realize: when you're in the closet and you're living with this crippling secret, you're living with depression, you're living with suicidal tendencies, you're living with blackouts, you're living with stress and it's one of those things where that's what I played with, and it was very difficult to play to the best of my ability, to play to the fullest of my potential when you're carrying all of that with you. What Jason, wow, what Jason did was absolutely amazing and one thing I can relate with him when he said, when he came out, he felt complete, or he felt whole. Because when I said those words for the first time, that Esera Tuaolo was gay, it felt absolutely incredible because most of, all of my life, I never felt whole. There was always something missing. And when we, we the GLBT nation step into our truth, and tell the truth about ourselves it is such an amazing feeling just to feel complete.

Bob Schieffer: Alright. Brendon, you have said that, recently, you think more than one current NFL player is going to come out. Do you think that will happen soon?

Brendon Ayanbadejo: I'm not sure when it will happen, but as an ally all I can do is my part and I'm so honored to be with Esera and help people so that they don't have to be in the shoes that he was in, to live with depression and to have suicidal tendencies. So as an ally we're just going to do everything we can to make a safe, inclusive environment so people don't have to live with that type of pain and that type of burden.

Bob Schieffer: Well, Esera, what can you do? I mean do you think it's a good idea for people not to come out? Or how many people do you think there are in the NFL who are gay? Do you have any idea?

Esera Tuaolo: I don't, I know a few. But I don't, definitely, it's always a good thing to live in your truth and come out. What Jason Collins did, I'm hoping that it will open doors for athletes that are in the closet to come out in any of the four major sports. So yeah, it's always, from what -the education that I have now and from the support and learning about so many organizations out there, I'm with "You Can Play," it's one of those things where, what I know now, if I had the opportunity to go back into time and come out, I definitely would.

Bob Schieffer: And Brendon, do you think the NFL locker room is really ready for this?

Brendon Ayanbadejo: Yeah I think it's ready, but then again it's our jobs, even if they're not ready, it's our jobs to do what's right and to do what's best. We're fighting for so many things. We want athletes to be themselves and to realize their full potential. But also it trickles down to kids and affects kids with their self-esteem. It will cut down suicide rates in kids if NFL players support the LGBT movement. So, and then also legislatively, we don't have - the LGBT community does not have the rights of just heterosexual people. And that's discrimination in itself. So there's so many moving parts to this movement and so many ways we can make a difference in acceptance, in sports alone, that can change the whole demographic and can change things in our whole country and make us so much more of a positive nation just by supporting, just by NFL players or NBA players, NHL, MLB players coming out. So that's why it's so heroic, what Jason Collins did.

Bob Schieffer; Do you think this is really the last frontier for gay acceptance and equality?

Brendon Ayanbadejo: No, I still think we have a ways to go. The religious community, we respect relation and we want people to have their religion, and also not change religions, but we want people to be accepting of everybody. So I think the religious community and the sports community, between the two I think those are two of the last closets in America, two of the last places where people are accepted. So once we get people to realize that you're born gay and that gay people are disenfranchised and they don't have all the same rights and benefits as everyone else and yet they're no different than everybody else, we can get past this unfortunate incident that's going on in our country every day.

Bob Schieffer: Esera?

Esera Tuaolo: Brendon basically said it all. And that's, we definitely have, we've taken some baby steps forward and we still have a lot of work to do. The war started back in Stonewall and we're still in the middle of the battle. But we are definitely living in different times and where it's on the table for us to discuss and, you know, it's for me it's very encouraging to see what's happening today with the GLBT nation, you know, people like Martina Navratilova and Billie Jean King who have definitely paved the way for us, have definitely been an inspiration for myself. So we have a lot to work on, like Brendon said, you know, with religion and sports and the NFL and the four major sports, I think those are the two last closets that we need to tackle.

Bob Schieffer: Well I want to thank both of you for joining us this morning. And we'll be back in a moment with more voices on the role of gay athletes in professional sports. Stay with us.

Bob Schieffer: And we're back now with former Baltimore Ravens cornerback Dominique Foxworth, he is the President of the NFL Player Association. Every sports fan in Washington knows our next guest, Ted Leonsis who owns the Capitals, the Wizards and the Mystics. What do you do on your day off, man? Sports Illustrated Managing Editor is Chris Stone, with us this morning, and our friend Bill Rhoden of the New York Times. Gentlemen, you just heard these four athletes talk about all this and I'm going to call him by, we're all on first name basis, Ted as the owner of these teams, is this going to be easy? The news came out, it didn't cause, people didn't start marching in the streets or anything. There was a lot of attention but not really a lot of controversy -- will there be controversy and what will this be like now?

Ted Leonsis: Well, Jason played for the Washington Wizards and he called me a couple minutes before the story went live and I told him I was very proud of him. When you own a team you have a big social responsibility to your community and what he did individually was very courageous, but it also activated this level of discussion and to be the first male active player to come out was a big deal.

Bob Schieffer: Well, how will this be accepted in the locker room?

Ted Leonsis: Well so far I think its generational, it's kind of been a big shrug. I think the best comment by a player on our team was "terrific, you're my brother, you still can't hit a jump shot." I think at the end of the day, decisions will be made on basketball-related matters on Jason. And so it has nothing to do with what his sexual preference is -- in fact, written right into the CBA is a non-discriminatory clause. We can't discriminate. And so I think that this is just a natural part of the business and the way it develops. What I was surprised by - I'm in internet businesses, I'm in other media and entertainment businesses -- whether you're gay or not has nothing to do with whether you can do your job. This really was the first time that this discussion really has spilled over into professional sports and Jason's a really, really good player. I'm sure his career will continue.

Bob Schieffer: Dominique you head up the players association, is this like when Jackie Robinson came into baseball?

Dominique Foxworth: I think it's slightly different, because obviously there have been gay players in the NFL and gay players in all professional sports, there are likely gay players in the Hall of Fame. But the courage that Jason has shown is similar to Jackie Robinson, and I think our professional athletes are uniquely qualified -- they go through their entire life being scrutinized. They're uniquely qualified to step up and take on this type of pressure and take on this type of public role. We've seen it with Tommy Smith and John Carlos, Bill Russell, Jim Brown. I think this is the latest iteration of athletes taking on public issues and helping to push our society forward.

Bob Schieffer: Chris -- why did you put him on the cover? There have been a number of gay women who came out, you didn't put them on the cover.

Chris Stone: Well, he's the first in the four major American team sports and male cultural attitudes in the locker room, about male sexuality, are different than they are with women. You know, professional team sports have existed for 140 years now. He's the first to come out as an active player. That's history. And I think everything that everybody who's preceded me here today has said just speaks to that equally as poignantly.

Bob Schieffer: Bill -- sum it up for us: what does this mean for American sports?

Bill Rhoden: It means a lot, I mean I'm a little uneasy with the whole Jackie Robinson thing, that's kind of cropped up a lot. I'd like to, that leads to one river of American history...

Bob Schieffer: Well, talk about it.

Bill Rhoden: Well, I'm saying the history of the African American human struggle has been since the 17th century and it has been a great model for other movements to follow. There are a lot of differences, but I just don't want, I think this whole idea of human sexuality in pro sports is a thing unto itself, and that's what we should deal with. I do think that, we're talking about heroism in Jason Collins, I think that the heroism now is going to be with people in the other locker rooms. It's going to be the kids on the playground who refuse to allow the wrong things to happen because of people's orientation. It's going to be the heroism in locker rooms when they hear the gay slurs -- and we've all been in locker rooms and although you can't legislate feelings, so I think the heroism comes in when you hear people say the "F word" and this, to jump in and say, listen man, there are no cameras here but that's not what we do here, that's not what we -- so I think the heroism is going to shift from the people like Jason to the people in the community around him.

Domonique Foxworth: I think that's a great point and I think that's happening. I see it happening. I see it happening with people like Kobe Bryant and LeBron James making those statements. So not only is Jason going to be a great role model for young athletes who are gay. These overall role models, kind of the epitome of masculinity in our society, are our athletes. And they -- people trump up their masculinity because they're so strong and so fast and so tough. But that physical strength is nothing in comparison to the level of strength that they show when they stand up for an oppressed minority, or they stand and they make a stand when someone says something that's offensive and I think that's, setting that example is starting to change. And I've been so proud to be a part of this segment of athletic history because we are taking this on and we are redefining masculinity and showing a new dimension of masculinity that I'm so proud to be a part of.

Bob Schieffer: Go ahead, Ted.

Ted Leonsis: The leagues have taken a lead role there and we understand that the role modeling, and being able to set an example, and how that trickles all the way down through society with young adults in America and the NHL is very, very active and 'You Can Play', I think that's an important program. The NBA for a long, long time, is -- they're doing PSAs with some of the star players in the league to set a platform and a cultural environment that we really want to embrace everyone. And that sports is really based on talent, based on are you a good teammate, hard work and discipline. And so setting that example is great. And the WNBA, I own the Washington Mystics in town, and we had one of the first players come out. Sheryl Swoopes, a superstar player. The first pick in the draft this year has announced that she's gay...

Bob Schieffer: Let me just ask you this: I mean professional sports is a business. You know, you make money, or you want to. These players play for money. What has been the reaction you're getting from the fans? Has anybody called up and cancelled their tickets? Or, what are people saying when they call up?

Ted Leonsis: Well, these teams are double bottom line businesses. We do want to do well but we want to do good. And, embracing diversity is certainly an important driver for everyone who owns a team. I don't look at it from a business standpoint and I don't think it's something you market and celebrate. I think it's just trying to do the right things the right way and serving your community.

Bob Schieffer: But what are you hearing from your fans?

Ted Leonsis: That's what's been so surprising. I think it's been a yawn. I think it's been-I think politically, the media has talked about it a lot but from a straight sports standpoint, Jason is an unrestricted free agent and I think our fans know we would re-sign him if we needed another big man who could play two or three minutes and played good defense and had more fouls than points.

Chris Stone: I think that's an important point that Ted makes and I think that this is the way Jason prefers it, frankly. Jason's not looking to carry a flag here. He's not looking to go to the front of the line on this issue even, he's just looking to get in line with others. The people who've paved the way for him and the people who will fall in behind him and are going to make this more palatable to more people in America.

Bob Schieffer: What kind of reaction are you getting from your readers?

Chris Stone: You know it's early because we generally don't go through our letters until the end of the week -- but you know on Monday, it was the most trafficked day in the history of our website. Easily. So, obviously, I understand what Ted's saying when he says it's received with a yawn, but it actually has resonated with a lot of people out there. And I think the reason it resonated with so many people is because it wasn't a story that was dark, or too heavy. Yes, he spoke about the difficulties of keeping the secret for 33 years of his life but at the same time, there was levity to it, there was humor, there was directness, there was honesty. He really humanized the issue and I think that's why the story resonated as much as it did.

Bob Schieffer: Let me ask Bill, we have about 30 seconds here, how long does this story go on?

Bill Rhoden: I mean, I think it's going to go on as long as human sexuality is the mystery that it is, in terms of sports. And let's not be deceived -I mean, people will yawn but there are some very deep feelings on the other side too, so I think it's really important that if we're going to have a dialogue, let's have an open dialogue. Let's not just shut it down either way. But it's a great thing --

Bob Schieffer: But here is where we have to shut this one down. Just because of the clock. We'll be back in a minute. Thank you, thank you very much.

Bob Schieffer: That's it for us today. Be sure to join us next week when we'll be talking with former Defense Secretary Robert Gates. See you then.