Face the Nation transcripts June 2, 2013: Fallin, McCain, Reed, Abramson & Woodward

(CBS News) Below is a transcript of "Face the Nation" on June 2, 2013, hosted by CBS News' Bob Schieffer. Guests include: Gov. Mary Fallin, R-Okla., Sens. John McCain, R-Ariz., and Jack Reed, D-R.I. Plus, a panel with New York Times' Jill Abramson, the Washington Post's Bob Woodward and David Ignatius, the Daily Beast's Dan Klaidman and CBS News Political Director John Dickerson.

BOB SCHIEFFER: And, good morning again. Well, it is the weather again. Violent tornadoes and storms claimed twelve lives and at least a hundred were reported injured this weekend as a result of the violent storms and tornadoes in the Midwest and South. Most of the fatalities occurred just outside Oklahoma City where a tornado killed nine people along Interstate 40 Friday night. We're going to start this week exactly how we started last week with the governor of Oklahoma, Mary Fallin. She joins us this morning from El Reno. Governor, I must say, we didn't think last week we'd be talking to you again this week, but Oklahoma, just when we thought the bad news was passed, the tornadoes struck again. How is everybody doing this morning?

GOVERNOR MARY FALLIN (R-Oklahoma): Well, we're doing well, Bob. It's-- it's been a very trying couple of weeks in the state of Oklahoma, but once again it's that Oklahoma strong resiliency, compassion, neighbor helping neighbor that we're seeing. Again, we're still pulling up from our boot straps, we're getting busy doing what we need to do, just take care of our people. But we were surprised. We knew the weather was going to be bad, but to think that this could happen, you know, two weeks in a row is-- is quite remarkable. We had loss of life again. We know at least nine people were hoping that there is not going to be more, but there are some people that are missing and we're still doing some-- some rescuing and searching for that, but it's a lot of cleanup to be done around Oklahoma.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Last week it appeared that a lot of people were trapped in various buildings and things. This week it appears that people got in their cars and so forth and were trying to outrun this thing and a lot of the deaths were on the highways. Is that basically what happened?

GOVERNOR MARY FALLIN: I'll tell you, Bob, I was watching at night as the storm was coming through this area. And I could see I-40 Highway from here which we're real close to, that a lot of people-- well, businesses let their employees off at two, three, four o'clock early to be prepared for the storm because we knew it was going to be coming up. Nothing going on at that time, just cloudy, overcast, but no major storms up. But then about five it started hitting, and there were some people who were-- just trying to go some other place and-- and get in your car and go and-- and try to get away from the storm itself. So we had a lot of people from rush-hour traffic. We had people who were just trying to leave their community and maybe go somewhere else that might be safer, and the highways do get clogged up. And so as I was watching the news that night and monitoring the situation, the highways were just packed. I-40 Highway just had miles of cars lined up. I-35 down by more where we had the other damage, it was right during the rush hour, it was packed, too. So I called our Department of Transportation, our Highway Patrol, and our-- our local officials, our emergency management director, so we got to do something to get these cars off the highways because they're in peril because there were several different storm tracks, about three to four different tornadoes that were going through the areas, not anything like what the Moore tornado, but they were heavy storms, and these people were in their cars. And so we did have some loss of life from those who were in their cars.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, let me-- that was my next question. How are the folks over in Moore doing?

GOVERNOR MARY FALLIN: Well, the folks in Moore had a lot of rain and a lot of hail, some-- some winds, but, thankfully, no tornado that came through there. The debris pickup is going extremely well. It's remarkable to drive through there. I've been driving through the-- the last couple of days. There's lot of people on the ground. They're cleaning up the debris. I've seen a lot of the businesses reopen. The Warren Theater which was in the area where the hospital was hit, the post office, which-- which is-- the damage is still there, but the Warren Theater is now open and there were a lot of cars there, even yesterday afternoon and the night before, so that's encouraging to see that open. The businesses are beginning to open. There were a lot of businesses that were shut down because the electricity and water was off for several days. But it's starting to come back to life. Commerce is coming back. People are getting their debris pushed aside. It is being picked now, lot of construction companies and-- and different debris removal companies. So we're feeling much better about that. We are thankful that the storms didn't do more compared to what was coming through the other night with the traffic on the highways and just different storms in Oklahoma. It could have been much, much worse, but we are sad that we did lose, that we know of, nine lives.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, Governor, I want to thank you very much for taking the time this morning, and I want to tell you, I hope we do not begin next week's broadcast with a report from you. You've been very good to keep us up to date on this. But I hope the next time we talk to you, it will be about some good news.

GOVERNOR MARY FALLIN: Well, I hope so, too, Bob. I just want people in America to know that Oklahoma is a great place to live. You know, just like states have wildfires in California, or earthquakes or they may have other tornadoes in other areas of the-- of the country, you know, this is really a great, great state. Our economy is doing beautifully, and the people are wonderful. So I hope they are able to come back and see us when we have one of our up moments and-- and we are very strong. We're going to come back strong.

BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. Thank you so much.

GOVERNOR MARY FALLIN: Thank you, Bob.

BOB SCHIEFFER: And from the storms to war, we go now to Senator John McCain. He is in San Francisco this morning but he is just back from a secret trip to Syria. I understand, Senator, even your daughter didn't know you were there until she-- she read about it. So you went. You met with some of the rebel forces there. I guess the first thing to ask you is what did you find out?

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN (Armed Services Committee/R-Arizona): Well, I found out that these individuals are very tough. They're battle hardened. They're-- they're very dedicated. They are not al Qaeda. They are not extremists. I met with some nineteen battalion commanders, both in Turkey and in Syria but they're badly outgunned now. And there's a lot of really serious stuff going on that it just breaks your heart. Qusayr is surrounded by Bashar al-Assad's forces. They're pounding them from the air and with artillery. There are some four hundred or more people are wounded that they can't get out. And that's a key battle because, strategically, it's vital to success or failure of Bashar Assad so-- so I-- I met them. General Idris who is the commander of the military inside Syria, escorted me in and out. He's a fine leader. And so all I can tell you is that, yes, al-Nusra is there. More and more extremists are pouring in. Everyday it gets worse, but we have some very strong and good people who are fighting for freedom and are being massacred as we speak. And-- and by the way, remember all this talk we've heard for the last year or two, it's inevitable that Bashar al-Assad will fall? Well, I think we can't make that statement today as the Iranians, Hezbollah has now invaded. Iranians are there. Russia is pouring weapons in. And anybody that believes that a-- Bashar al-Assad is going to go to a conference in Geneva when he is prevailing on the battlefield it's just ludicrous to assume that.

BOB SCHIEFFER: So you think he is now-- has the upper hand.

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: I think that every assessment that you get from any intelligence agency is that thanks to increased weapons, thanks to Hezbollah fighters, thanks to extremist Shia coming in from Iraq. The Russian pouring weapons in, Iranians Revolutionary Guard that we are seeing, unfortunately, a battlefield situation where Bashar Assad now has the upper hand and it's tragic while we sit by and watch.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Have you talked to anybody at the White House about this or given any kind of report to the administration?

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: I haven't given a report yet. I did talk to John Kerry earlier before I went in, but I've have been over here at my son's wedding in San Francisco, but I'm sure I will. I will-- hopefully, we will go to the floor but I will-- and-- but the administration knows this. They have the same information I have. It's a-- it's slaughter and the refugee camps are full. The Jordanians cannot last under the present situation. Lebanon is in-- is more and more tilting into chaos. The Israelis are threatened. This is now the-- has the every likelihood of turning into a regional conflict rather than just one within Syria.

BOB SCHIEFFER: What can we do, Senator? What-- some people say there's not much, including Bob Gates, the former Secretary of Defense. Is it-- there just not much we can do about this right now? What will you tell the administration they need to do here?

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Well, we need to give them a no-fly zone. We can--- the Israelis have shown us we can take out their facilities without-- from a-- from distance. We don't have to risk our-- our pilots. We can crater their runways. We can take out their air assets. We can provide them with a safe zone so that the-- the Syrian Council-- Opposition Council, which is outside Syria, can come in to Syria and coordinate with the military, General Idris and the militia and military inside of Syria, and we can establish that safe zone. And I'm confident that we can prevail. But air power, a classic example is-- is Qusayr. They have it surrounded. Bashar Assad's forces have it around-- surrounded, and then they pound it from the air, the scud missiles and with helicopter gunships and with fixed wing aircraft. Air-- air superiority is a key element in any conflict with this terrain and this climate and it's-- it's devastating to them.

BOB SCHIEFFER: So you're talking about U.S. airpower using--

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: No.

BOB SCHIEFFER: --U.S. bombers to go in there and bomb these runways and so forth?

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: No. No, I would use stand-off cruise missiles to crater the runways. I would use the patriot missiles down-- near-- close to the border to protect the safe zone. But, no, I would not send U.S.-manned aircraft over Syria. And, by the way, the Israelis just showed that the defensive capabilities of Bashar Assad are not nearly what our military were claiming it to be. And that's unfortunate.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me ask you this, Senator: What is our strategic objective in Syria? What should it be? What do we want to see there? Obviously, we'd like to see the shooting stop, but beyond that, what-- what do we expect or want or-- or think should be there?

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Well, it is in our strategic interest to see Bashar Assad go. The Iranian-- General Mattis, who is the head of our Central Command said that the fall of Bashar Assad would be the glay-- greatest blow to Iran in the last twenty-five years. It would cut off their connection with Hezbollah. The reason why Hezbollah is now all in there, because they know that if Syria goes, they lose their connection with Iran and that would have very serious consequences for them. So we want a Syria that can have a very long and difficult path to a democracy and governing themselves without being massacred by Bashar Assad. And that's going to be more and more difficult every day. I admit that. There's-- there's jihadists from all over the Middle East pouring in there, and it's going to make it extremely difficult. But compare that to the status quo-- the status quo, the massacre goes on and Bashar Assad stays in power, and the-- and the spillover in the region turns it into a regional conflict.

There's no good options here. The options were better a year-- two years ago than they are now and every day it gets worse. And there's no doubt that this is going to become a regional conflict if it continues like this.

BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. Let me just shift to--

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Okay.

BOB SCHIEFER: --some of the controversies going on back there in Washington, number one being Attorney General Eric Holder. He's now being investigated by a House Committee. Republicans claim he lied to Congress about having no participation in tracking down these new leaks. Do you-- did you think in general that the Attorney General has overplayed his hand here?

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: I think he's made-- taken action that demand-- demand explanation. I am more than happy to-- to give him that opportunity to explain the obvious contradictions between his statements of not having anything to do with these investigations and the obvious fact that he did. But I also think that the Attorney General has to ask himself the question is he really able to effectively serve the President of the United States and the American people under the present circumstances? That's a decision he'd have to make.

BOB SCHIEFFER: But in other words do you think he ought to resign?

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Again, I think that would be up to him, but I don't-- I think it would be tough for him to answer the question whether he can still effectively serve the President of the United States.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Do you think he lied when he made that statement?

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: You know, I've always avoided, Bob that word because it's-- it's so definitive. But I don't think there's any doubt there are significant contradictions between what we now know were his action as regards to these media people and-- and what he stated before Congress. He's going to have to resolve that, not only to Congress, but to the American people.

BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. Well, Senator, we want to thank you. We're glad you're home safe and we'll look forward to talking to you again. Thanks a lot.

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Thank you.

BOB SCHIEFFER: We'll be back in one minute.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

BOB SCHIEFFER: And we're back now with Senator Jack Reed. He is one of the senior Democrats on the Senate Armed Services Committee. He's home in Providence, Rhode Island, this morning. Senator Reed, you heard Senator McCain. What is your thought on a fly-- no-fly zone? He seems to think that's one of the first things we ought to do here.

SENATOR JACK REED (Armed Services Committee/D-Rhode Island): Well, first thing I think Senator McCain's trip indicates the kind of dedication to duty and personal courage he exemplified through his entire life and his impressions are very valuable. I think the no-fly zone is not going to effectively deter the Assad regime. They can use artillery. In fact, they can probably use helicopter gunships. They can continue the fight; I think the issue here is not so much a military issue. First, it's the organizational and institutional coherence of the opposition military forces. Senator McCain is right. They're extremely brave, dedicated fighters. There are some good leaders, but without that organizational coherence and training, if they have weapons or if they have the freer skies that they still I don't think will be a decisive factor. The key here, ultimately, is a political resolution. That's why this conference in Geneva is so critical. And it's critical that the Syrian opposition attend, and also that we can convince-- and this is a difficult task to Russians, that despite their attachment to Assad, their support for Assad, that some of the things that Senator McCain talked about and really possible--regional spillover, disintegration, chaotic sectarian warfare, would be as detrimental to-- to the Russians as anyone else in their own self-interest. They have to be much more responsible and much less provocative.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, what then should we do? What do you think that United States could do at this point? Some people say there's not much we can do.

SENATOR JACK REED: Well, first of all, we have to provide humanitarian assistance, to-- particularly, to Jordan and to other countries. We have to reiterate that the introduction of more sophisticated weapons, particularly, the sophisticated anti-aircraft weapons would be a regional threat and, particularly, a threat to Israel and have to be very conscious of that. And that's another reason why we talk about arming the-- the opposition in Syria, that might be a signal to the Russians that they can just go ahead and continue to accelerate the arms race there. That's another reason we have to come back, I think, to Geneva. And I-- I think it's a very difficult negotiation process that the sense-- and I think Senator McCain is right that Assad, who appeared months ago to be on his last legs has regrouped, reformed. I think there is a fragmentation going on territorially in Syria, he is getting outside assistance. But this calls, I think, for, ultimately, a political solution, and our energies should be directed, at least through this Geneva conference the next few weeks, of trying to arrive with our allies--the European Union, particularly-- with a political arrangement and the Russians have to be a key part of that. I don't think we take any options off the table, but the first priority is seeing if we can make a breakthrough politically.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Do you agree with Senator McCain that Assad now has the upper hand that he is winning?

SENATOR JACK REED: I think he has stabilized his position significantly. In the first few weeks of this revolution, which began peacefully, there was massive defections from the Syrian Army, many of them Sunnis who were leaving the forces. Since that time he's been able to reconstitute his forces. He's-- as Senator McCain rightly pointed out, he has received technical and military assistance from the Iranians and from the Russians, but I don't think he has a decisive position where he can control all of Syria. I think my fear is that what you get is a fragmentation, what you get is a spillover into other areas. And as a result, again, in the long term, the-- the resolution must come from political cooperation and cooperation from parties that to this point, particularly the Russians, have not been helpful. I don't think there's major expectation that the Iranians will be constructive. And, in fact, you know, they see this as an existential sort of battle. But if we can get the Russians to be more responsible, and they'll-- they'll only do it in their own self interest. They won't do it because they-- they want to see a secular, decent regime in-- in Damascus. We have to be able to convince them that this is too dangerous, this potential spillover effect, this potential humanitarian crisis, and, particularly, the escalation of arms that it would threaten them. And if that's the case, if we can make that argument, as Secretary Kerry has well versed and well-prepared, then we do have a chance, I think, of lowering the-- the threshold of violence, and, also trying to arrange some type of political transition. You know, months ago the-- the Russians were even conceding that Assad was gone, and they-- they were-- they were looking beyond that. Now, if we can make such a transition in a way that is guaranteed supported and cooperated by the major powers, that not only might end the fighting or at least diminish it, but it would augur well for-- much more stable situation after hostilities come to an end.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Senator, I have about thirty seconds left. But I want to ask you quickly, these controversies surrounding Eric Holder. Do you think he ought to step aside? Do you think he's the one that ought to be investigating this situation about the news leaks and all of that, since he is, obviously, involved?

SENATOR JACK REED: I don't think he should step aside. I think he should be very careful in terms of delegating responsibilities, so even the appearance of conflicts are avoided. And I think as Senator McCain indicated, he has the obligation as every public servant and candidates have to fully explain to the American public and to the Congress what he did, what was his rationale. That I think is incumbent with being the-- the Attorney General of the United States.

BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. Well, Senator, thank you so much. I'll be right back--

SENATOR JACK REED: Thank you, Bob.

BOB SCHIEFFER: --with some personal thoughts on all of these.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

BOB SCHIEFFER: The Bible tells us for everything there's a season, but we seem to be in the middle of the season for everything. There was a time when Washington shut down for vacation season and Congress went home about now. Now, they go home all the time, and when they're here they don't do anything so it's hard to know if they're here or not, but I guess they're on schedule. For a while there summer was the season for Washington scandals. It was summer when the burglars broke into the Watergate. Summer when Richard Nixon finally left. So maybe we shouldn't be surprised that right on schedule, the second-term doldrums have set in at the Obama White House, bringing with them a scandal or two. It's that time of year. Storm season is right on schedule, too, but the weather seems more unpredictable than ever--hot when it should be cold, cold when it should be hot. But just when you thought this was the season for just bad stuff, there was this: A plane crashed nose first into the home of a Herndon, Virginia family, Friday night. Amazingly, none of the four people in the apartment was hurt. A six-year-old boy slept through it all. The pilot was hurt but he and his passenger climbed out, asked the startled homeowner if he was okay, and the homeowner said, "We're good." He then woke up the six-year-old and they all walked outside.

Back in a minute.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, some of our stations are leaving us now. But for most of you, we'll be back with our panel on news leaks and the other controversies that have engulfed Washington. See you in a minute.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

BOB SCHIEFFER: And welcome back to FACE THE NATION. And we'd like to welcome the executive editor of the New York Times, Jill Abramson. I don't believe you were the top person at the New York Times the last time you were on FACE THE NATION but you are now.

JILL ABRAMSON (New York Times Executive Editor): That may be true.

BOB SCHIEFFER: And we're glad to have you. The legendary Bob Woodward, who has been legendary for a while now, from the Washington Post. Daniel Klaidman, the national political correspondent with the Daily Beast. David Ignatius, also of the Washington Post, and our own John Dickerson. Well, we had a little break over Memorial Day because Congress has been on vacation again. But this promises to be another rough week for the administration with more congressional hearings into the IRS scandal, a new report coming out this week on excessive spending at the IRS. They've been spending money on things like parties and dance instruction videos. I could-- should have taught them to do that dance. The attorney general has come under intense criticism for the way he's handling leaks of classified information to reporters. There is still a controversy over the now famous talking points on the Benghazi attacks. So let's just start right in. Jill, the Attorney General asked the bureau chiefs at the various news organizations here in Washington to meet with him to discuss his handling of all of this. The New York Times, CBS, and some others decided not to attend. The reason we didn't go is because they told us it would be off the record. We also wanted to have our counsel present. Why did you decide not to do it?

JILL ABRAMSON: Well, for many of the same reasons, Bob. To have this private meeting with the attorney general not be able to share anything about it with our readers didn't seem to have a point to me. But the Times and our readers are quite concerned about the six active criminal leak cases that the Obama administration has pursued. That's more than all the other administrations combined. And, yeah, we are concerned that the process of news gathering is being criminalized. The First Amendment is first for a reason. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison thought it was crucial for our country to have a free and robust press to help keep the government accountable. And that's the job that Times reporters and other reporters here in Washington are trying so hard to do.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Bob Woodward, you know a little something about leaks down through the years. Your editor went to this meeting. What did he find out?

BOB WOODWARD (Washington Post): Well, I don't know that you find out anything in a session like that. What you do-- and I-- I think you have to step back a little bit and say what's going on here? And this isn't just a legal issue or a journalism issue. It's a practical issue for the administration. And what they're doing here I think is self-defeating that since the Pentagon papers decision, 1971, which said there can be no prior restraint on publication, the media--and I know myself--several dozen times have gone to the White House or the CIA or the Pentagon and said, "I have these details about this operation. What do you think?" And then they make their arguments about what part shouldn't be published or it shouldn't be published at all. And it actually helps the government and helps the press, and, if you can say it, helps national security and to chill all of this by saying, oh, if you go, if they find out that you have got some state secret, they're going to get your phone records, they're going to sever that relationship.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Dan, you-- you actually interviewed the attorney general. And as far as I know you're the one single reporter who has interviewed him since all of this. What did you come away from the interview? What did you think about it?

DANIEL KLAIDMAN (Daily Beast): Well, look, I think he was-- wanted to publicly acknowledge that that balance that the Justice Department says it wants to strike between cracking down on national security leaks but at the same time protecting the free flow of information, allowing reporters to do their job of aggressively reporting on the government, that that balance had gotten out of whack. And that he and his department wants to try to recalibrate it, wants to update and-- and-- and reform the guidelines that cover interactions between the Justice Department and the press. They've begun that process.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Did you think they knew what they were getting into when they launched into this?

DANIEL KLAIDMAN: Well, that is-- that-- that's the interesting question. And I think-- I think it's complicated. I think for one thing, the administration, the Justice Department comes under enormous pressure to-- on crack down on leaks. And Holder himself was hauled up before the Senate Intelligence Committee. Some of that pressure comes from Congress to-- to go after leakers. This was in December of 2009. But I think there's a larger kind of cultural issue at play here, which is prosecutors think in a certain way, which is they're going to cast as wide a net as possible, get as much evidence as they can, so that they can have a sustainable case in a court of law. And Eric Holder is a prosecutor most of his career. What should happen is when you get to that higher level, this political leadership at the Justice Department, they need to have peripheral vision, not the tunnel vision that sometimes these prosecutors have. And that's where I think he fell down.

JOHN DICKERSON (CBS News Political Director): And just to jump in on Dan's point about those prosecutors going after these leaks. In one of them, in an affidavit that Holder signed off on, they named James Rosen of Fox News, a co-conspirator. Now Holder in front of Congress said that and this is a quote from him, "With regard to potential prosecution of the press, for the disclosure of material-- "

BOB SCHIEFFER: In fact, let's just-- we have that.

JOHN DICKERSON: Okay.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Let's just listen to that.

ERIC HOLDER (May 15, 2013): With regard to the potential prosecution of the press for the disclosure of material, that is not something that I've ever been involved in, heard of, or would think would be a wise policy.

BOB SCHIEFFER: So there you have it. He said that he didn't know anything about it.

JOHN DICKERSON: Right. And or heard of. I mean, that is a pretty-- pretty broad--

BOB SCHIEFFER: But, yet, he signed a subpoena.

JOHN DICKERSON: This-- this affidavit. And it goes back to Dan's point, they were going after in every way. Now what they say at the Justice Department is this was something they never were intending to prosecute the journalist here. They just did it as a part of the paperwork and so that the attorney general is consistent in his public remarks. But the problem is that it doesn't sound consistent to regular old people. And that's the political problem that we have.

DANIEL KLAIDMAN: Let me give you one very quick point. First of all, I don't think there really is a, particularly, good chance that this is going to be a sustainable perjury case for the reasons that you explained. But one prosecutor who has done these leak investigations said to me that all that Justice Department would have had to have done was to have put a footnote in that affidavit to say, look, you know, we have no intention of prosecuting this reporter. This was essentially a legal tactic to get a search warrant approved. That's really what it was.

BOB SCHIEFFER: But I mean, saying, well, we really didn't mean to do that, that's kind of a thin suit.

JILL ABRAMSON: And in all-- in all of these cases I think the important thing is there's supposed to be a balance between the needs to prosecute leakers and a free press. And it appears that in the pursuit of these cases--I agree with Dan and his point--about a prosecutorial mindset that balance doesn't seem to have been applied inside the department. And I wonder who was speaking up for the free press side of that.

DAVID IGNATIUS (Washington Post): I-- I just think this is a panel of journalists and we obviously, focus on the case that involves several of our own. But in terms of the critique of Eric Holder, the problem is that Eric Holder has been a weak attorney general. He has not exercised the kind of judgment on-- on the broad range of criminal prosecutions. He's not organized the Justice Department to pursue white-collar crime after these enormous scandals as a lot of the public wants. He's-- people who deal with the department every day say he has consistently been a weak manager. And this is an example of that. The judgment that should have been brought to bear before you subpoena twenty phones from the Associated Press, you surely you know you're going to get a firestorm response. You call up the Associated Press and you talk to them about it. The notion that you're going to sort of slip it through, which they acted as if they thought, was-- was wrong. So I do think that-- that the larger question about Eric-- Eric Holder is has he been a good attorney general and I hear an awful lot of very knowledgeable lawyers say, no, he hasn't.

BOB WOODWARD: Well, The New York Times this morning was quoting people from the White House saying they would really like him to resign. But then, on the other side of it they say, this is all politics and you have to decide in this case. But it's all very troubling. And you lump all these things--the IRS, Benghazi, and this together and what you've got is a feeling that no one's coming clean, that we aren't getting straight talk. And this goes to President Obama. He's got to find a way to unravel this. We live in an age of distrust. I think it's more severe now, and he has to come find some way to clean this up and say, this is what happened, this is what it means. So people will say, ah, a member at the beginning of his administration, he got involved-- a mistake with Senator Daschle, and Barack Obama as President came out and said, I screwed up. If that's happened, we need to hear it again.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, let me just ask you this, does anyone here think that this investigation, this review of all of this, that the President said he wanted to conduct, should the attorney general be the one conducting this review, David?

DAVID IGNATIUS: Well, the issue here really is what standards is the Justice Department going to use when it subpoenas rep--reporters' materials? We do not have a separate category of citizenship. We sometimes wish we did, but we're like any other citizen. Our-- our-- our-- our-- our records can be subpoenaed. We can decide to resist that. And go to jail, as some reporters have, to protect our sources. But the-- the-- the Justice Department has for years had guidelines to try to reduce the incidents of encroaching on reporters and their sources. And one big question about-- about the behavior of the Justice Department here--Holder recused himself personally--is did the department follow its own guidelines. But what's happening now is perhaps an attempt to make stronger guidelines so it's less likely they'll go-- go after reporters and I think that's a good thing.

DANIEL KLAIDMAN: But the-- one of the problems is those guidelines have been fla-- flawed. They have big gaps in them. And for one thing, there's no mention of e-mails or text messages or social media. For another thing, search warrants, like the one in the Rosen case, are not covered by those guidelines. So there are some things that can be done to make those guidelines tougher and perhaps work better in these kinds of cases.

BOB WOODWARD: But it's not about guidelines, it's about commonsense.

BOB SCHIEFFER: But it's also about nobody seems to know about anything. Officials at the White House didn't know about the IRS and-- and the troubles they were having. Who knows who knew what was going on in Benghazi when they were trying to draw up these things. And then we get to this leak investigation. It seems to me this might go beyond the Justice Department.

JILL ABRAMSON: It's very easy to lump all of these issues together. I know that, you know, they absorb journalists inside of Washington. But I'm not sure how much any of these particular issues has absorbed the American public who I think are hoping against hope that the economy is at last showing some strength and maybe giving the President some credit for the fact that there are some hopeful--

BOB SCHIEFFER: Mm-Hm.

JILL ABRAMSON: --signs and who are concerned about things like the rising-- the continued ri-- soaring costs of health care, which the Times had on the front page today. Yeah.

BOB SCHIEFFER: But you don't-- you wouldn't say that you think it's not something we ought to be concerned about, Jill?

JILL ABRAMSON: No, I mean, clearly, I'm very concerned--

BOB SCHIEFFER: Yeah.

JILL ABRAMSON: --about the leak cases, which is why I came here to talk to you this morning.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Mm-Hm.

JILL ABRAMSON: But I'm just not sure, you know, they come together and create, you know, quote, unquote, "an atmosphere of scandal."

BOB WOODWARD: No, that's absolutely true. But we need facts. We need evidence. And this is not something-- I mean in this politicized environment, people who don't like Obama just jump on it and say this is the worst we've ever had. And then people who like him say, oh, no, this is just politics, and this is just nonsense. What we need are facts and not political rhetoric on each side because these are serious issues, and I disagree with you that people aren't tuned in to the sense of are we getting the truth from the White House in Washington?

DANIEL KLAIDMAN: Well, I think it's that old cliché that-- that the-- the-- the scandals that-- that have-- that have traction are the ones that were the facts reinforced in existing-- preexisting perception of a problem with the White House or the President or the administration. And that's why I think some of these probably don't. But the IRS controversy has the potential of-- of-- of creating that kind of problem for this administration. Because part of the President's image has been one that he's cultivated is one of competence in running the government.

BOB SCHIEFFER: I think if people think that the-- somebody is siccing the IRS on them, I think they're going to be concerned about it--

DANIEL KLAIDMAN: And that's personal and visceral.

BOB SCHIEFFER: --and we haven't seen any evidence yet that somebody is.

JILL ABRAMSON: That's right.

BOB SCHIEFFER: We haven't connected what's going on there with the White House or anything beyond the agency. But I think people are concerned about it. Let's take a break here and we'll come back in just a minute.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

BOB SCHIEFFER: We're back now. Jill, what is the main thing we ought to take away from this whole controversy on leakers?

JILL ABRAMSON: Well, I think the-- the main thing to keep in mind is this is not a group of journalists complaining because of attacks on the press per se. It's not only journalists or politicians who are raising this issue. Two of the judges in these leak cases have criticized the overzealous procedures that the Justice Department has used against reporters. And the reporters who work for the Times in Washington have told me that many of their sources are petrified to even return calls at this point.

BOB SCHIEFFER: That was my next question.

JILL ABRAMSON: So--

BOB SCHIEFFER: You are already feeling this.

JILL ABRAMSON: --it has so up pra-- a real practical effect that is important.

BOB SCHIEFFER: And, John, back to the IRS thing, where do you see this going?

JOHN DICKERSON: Well, we've got two things, one, the report you mentioned that's going to talk about spending at the IRS, forty-nine million dollars spent on these conferences and there is now this video about dance instruction, more headaches for the IRS. But there has been some reporting and I have talked to a lot of Republican senators who say they are hearing this from their constituents. What we know about so far is Tea Party groups that got extra scrutiny from the IRS. That's one scandal. But there is reporting now about individuals who are conservatives, who've given to conservative groups who feel like they were targeted. And if that's true, if it turns out there was somebody at the IRS going after individuals, that changes the cast of this. It's more serious. We don't know it for sure but McClatchy had a piece out on Friday. The Wall Street Journal had a piece. So there's-- that's something to watch for.

BOB SCHIEFFER: I want to talk a little bit about Syria. You heard John McCain. Do you think a no-fly zone is the answer, David?

DAVID IGNATIUS: Well, I think this administration is not prepared, not even close to being ready to-- to impose a no-fly zone. So the-- the question in the senses is moot. I-- I thought the discussion with McCain and-- and then Senator Reed really teed up what a nightmarishly difficult problem this is--

BOB SCHIEFFER: Yeah.

DAVID IGNATIUS: --and you couldn't listen to this and-- and-- and not feel this is a horrible humanitarian tragedy. It's a-- it's a-- it's a bloody battle every day. And, yet, the options the U.S. has presented with are-- are all bad.

And I-- I mean I-- I think what-- what the White House is trying to do, the President does not feel comfortable going to a no-fly zone, you know, going to anything like U.S. direct military involvement, what they are doing is building up the opposition, trying to train them, give them some command and control, give them better weapons, you know, not to shoot down airplanes, but just to-- to fight against the tanks. That's for right now I think that is what we should be doing.

BOB SCHIEFFER: But we don't really know what the impact of that is going to be. I mean I'm not sure we know or have-- I would like to hear somebody say to me, "This is our strategic objective in Syria. This is what we want to see five years from now."

BOB WOODWARD: There's a strategy here-- well, you were asking-- asking the senators about that.

BOB SCHIEFFER: And I never hear anybody give an answer to that.

BOB WOODWARD: Well, they-- they want to get Assad out of that.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Yeah. That's number--

BOB WOODWARD: I mean, they think that's the-- the--

BOB SCHIEFFER: But that's just step one.

BOB WOODWARD: Well, of course.

BOB SCHIEFFER: We wanted to get Saddam Hussein out of Iraq.

JILL ABRAMSON: Right now that's a harder step than it was months ago.

BOB WOODWARD: Or-- or even years ago. I mean, that-- that is part of the problem.

DAVID IGNATIUS: If you take these steps to create a stronger opposition that maybe can defeat Assad, but more important can stop the extremists and govern a future Syria. I mean, that's-- that's what this period should be about. Is-- is trying to build up the forces that someday will-- will govern a new, better, stronger Syria. That's- that's a ways off. But we shouldn't-- it doesn't mean we shouldn't start working on it now.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Go ahead.

DANIEL KLAIDMAN: There's a phrase that the Se-- the President used to use with his former vice chairman of the chief of staff, (INDISTINCT) "requirement creep," which was he used interchangeably with "mission creep." And this is a thing that this President has been worried about that once you start this process, will there be new requirements? Can you control that? He's very wary of getting embroiled in a civil war, another civil war in the Middle East.

BOB WOODWARD: Look, he doesn't like war. I mean that's very evident from pulling out of Iraq where we are pulling out of Afghanistan. He just does not like war and does not want another war, and in a sense, I think the public is with him on that.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Are we in some kind of a second-term doldrums here? It just seems to happen. You know, people get re-elected and then just kind of trouble comes. What-- you've seen a lot of this, Bob.

BOB WOODWARD: Well, first, I think there's a strain of hope here. And Jill was saying, I mean, that calling people sometimes in the national security area, they don't want to talk, it is a chilling environment. But I have found that even this week and last week that the White House will respond to legitimate inquiry in a serious way. Other words they are not, yet, in the bunker with the full canopy pulled over their head. And I hope that we will see more engagement and we get the data that we need and the answer to questions and I think that's possible.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Ten seconds.

JOHN DICKERSON: And the thing-- and the thing that they are happy about, unlike last-- the last few years, has been the economy. Consumer confidence highest numbers in five years.

JILL ABRAMSON: Right.

DAVID IGNATIUS: Right.

JOHN DICKERSON: Housing seven-year high on spending. So you talk to the White House, and they say, go, look, at the economy. Every conversation over the last four years, they would talk about anything else but.

BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. Well, we'll run look at the economy. And then we'll be back in a moment with our FACE THE NATION Flashback.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

BOB SCHIEFFER: Tiananmen Square is in the heart of Beijing, but it was twenty-four years ago tomorrow that a crackdown on pro-democracy forces there made it a name that will always be remembered in the struggle for human rights. That is our FACE THE NATION Flashback.

(Begin VT)

MAN: This is a CBS News special report.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Good day. The situation around Tiananmen Square in Beijing grows more complicated and more tense with each passing hour.

For nearly seven weeks Chinese students and citizens had been protesting peacefully in Beijing's city center, calling for democracy and political reform. But on June third, the situation took a violent and nasty turn that the soldiers are firing into the crowds. They're not firing into the air. You say you saw casualty?

JOHN LIU (CBS News): No, the soldiers are firing into the crowd. Large crowds of women, children, old people.

BOB SCHIEFFER: We're told now there were so many casualties that doctors in Beijing are unable to treat all of them. The army turned on foreign journalists but CBS reporters on the ground brought us this story via still photographs and a new device, cell phones. Correspondent Richard Roth was on the phone to us when the authorities went after him.

RICHARD ROTH (CBS News): You hear that gunfire?

MAN: We do hear it.

RICHARD ROTH: Okay, we've got to get out of here. They're just getting after Derek now. They're ripping away his camera, and they're coming for us. We're trying to move-- move back and move away. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no.

BOB SCHIEFFER: We've just lost communication with Richard Roth. Shots are being fired in the Square.

It would be twenty hours before we knew that Roth was safe and had been released, and while the Chinese military did break up the protests, it failed to break the spirit behind the movement. Just one day later, the world watched a lone protester block a line of tanks in that same Square--a peaceful act of defiance that would symbolize the courage of those who had been silenced.

(End VT)

BOB SCHIEFFER: Our FACE THE NATION Flashback.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

BOB SCHIEFFER: And that's it for us today. We'll be back right here next Sunday on FACE THE NATION. See you then.