Face the Nation Transcripts July 20, 2014: Kerry, King, Indyk
(CBS News) -- A transcript of the July 20 edition of Face the Nation. Guests include: John Kerry, Peter King, Martin Indyk, Bob Orr, David Martin, Mike Morell, Clarissa Ward, Mark Phillips, Barry Petersen, Kim Strassel, David Ignatius, Margaret Brennan and Peter Baker.
BOB SCHIEFFER, HOST: I'm Bob Schieffer. And this is FACE THE NATION. U.S. officials say they now have evidence the Russians were involved in the shoot-down of the airliner over Ukraine. And, in Israel, there is an intensifying of the ground war in Gaza. In Ukraine, more complications, as Russian separatists continue to block international efforts to secure the crash site and are now removing bodies and what appear on the black boxes from the scene. We will have reports from Ukraine and Moscow. In Israel, the death toll rises on both sides, and there is no end in sight. Secretary of State John Kerry joins us with the latest. We will hear from a key member of the House Intelligence Committee, New York Congressman Peter King and the former U.S. envoy to the Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, Ambassador Martin Indyk, plus analysis on all of this. Sixty years of news, because this is FACE THE NATION.
Good morning again.
We are beginning with the latest on the Malaysian airliner that was shot down on Thursday.
CBS News senior foreign correspondent Mark Phillips is at the crash site in Eastern Ukraine -- Mark.
MARK PHILLIPS, CBS NEWS SENIOR FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Bob, the scene here has been chaos in the three days since this crash, but, finally, and largely as a result we think of the international outrage that has been caused, some of the bodies, roughly 200 of them, of the victims of this crash are now being moved. It just has been confirmed here.
They have been taken to a town nearby and put in refrigerated rail cars, but that is just the beginning of it. There is still at least, we calculate, 100 bodies data are unaccounted for, many of them entwined we have seen over the last couple of days in this wreckage.
There is still a huge job to be done here. There are areas that are still hot, areas where a lot of aviation fuel has come down. There are people in the tangled wreckage that will take days and equipment to extract.
But in terms of the anguished families all over the world who lost people in this crash, at least some movement that those people are not now laying exposed here. In terms of the -- at least some of them.
In terms of the actual investigation into this crash, nothing serious has started here yet. There is an advance team from the European security body the OSCE on site, but in terms of actual crash investigation, how this happened, who did it, what evidence is in this field, nothing yet -- Bob.
SCHIEFFER: All right, Mark, thank you so much.
In the other major segment of the horrendous events that are unfolding this morning, Israel's ground invasion into the Gaza Strip is more intense than ever, and now there are new reports of Israeli casualties.
Barry Petersen is in Gaza with more on that -- Barry.
BARRY PETERSEN, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bob.
Well, I think we can say it is an dramatic explanation, if I can borrow your word, horrific death toll. Overnight, Hamas claims it ambushed a bunch of Israeli soldiers. Hamas claims it killed 14. Then today, we saw shelling in one of the neighborhoods here in Gaza.
So far, the death toll is about 70, but I have to tell you, Bob, we really don't know. There was a cease-fire that got broken and the shelling started again. We were at the city hospital today talking with some of the people who had been chased out of the area who say they saw bodies in the street, people that they were unable to get help for, and perhaps the saddest place to be in the city, the morgue at the hospital.
As fast as they would find a family, they would identify the remains, they would take them away, sobbing and wailing, another body would come in. And I have to say, Bob, that is the metaphor for the war that is going on in this city today.
SCHIEFFER: All right, Barry Petersen, thank you so much, Barry.
The secretary of state, John Kerry, joins us now from Boston.
Mr. Secretary, thank you so much.
And I want to start with the bottom-line question. Do we have definitive proof that the Russians were directly involved in the downing of this airliner?
JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, Bob, when you say definitive proof the Russians -- the investigation is going to draw conclusions that are -- quote -- "definitive."
What we have is a lot of evidence that points in the direction that raises very, very serious questions, including the fact that a few weeks ago, we have 150-vehicle convoy coming from Russia, going into the east of Ukraine with tanks, artillery, multiple rocket launchers, armored personnel carriers, turned over to the separatists.
We know that there are Russian leaders -- Russians who are leaders of the separatists -- some, not all, some -- and we know that the Russians have armed the separatists, trained the separatists, support the separatists, and have to date not publicly called on the separatists to stand down or to be part of the solution.
We know that, from our own imagery, we see that an SA-11, which is what we have assessed this to be the type of surface-to-air missile because of the altitude. The plane was at 33,000 feet. We know they had an SA-11 right in the vicinity hours before this shoot. The social media has documented this. We know that immediately after the shoot, the social media documented the self-proclaimed defense minister of the People's Republic of Donetsk, as they call it, he was bragging on the social media about shooting down a transport plane.
And then, when people learned it was a civilian aircraft, they pulled that off of the social media. We have intercepted voices that have been documented by our people through intelligence as being separatists who are talking to each other about the shoot-down. And we know that we have a video now of a transporter removing an SA-11 system back into Russia, and it shows a missing missile or so.
So, there is an enormous amount of evidence, even more evidence than I just documented, that points to the involvement of Russia in providing these systems, training the people on them. We know that the separatists have shot down 12 aircraft in the last couple of months, among them two transport planes.
But the evidence is quite enormous. Here is what is currently bothering everybody. Drunken separatists have been piling bodies into trucks and removing them from the site. We only had 75 minutes of access to the site on Friday, three hours of access yesterday, despite Mr. Putin and Russia saying they were going to make every effort to make sure there will be a full and fair investigation, thorough, and the site would be protected.
Because of Russia's linkage to these separatists, they have a greater ability to exert influence, and we need Russia to become part of the solution, not part of the problem.
SCHIEFFER: Well, what else do we need to know, after hearing what you have just outlined here? What else...
KERRY: We need an investigation, not the secretary of state just listing the things that we do know, but a full investigation with international investigators, with their trained personnel, with the people who can put all of the evidence together and draw the appropriate conclusions, so that we don't have a he said/she said finger-pointing back and forth.
People will draw their own conclusions. The evidence is there, but we need a full access to this site in order to conduct a thorough investigation.
SCHIEFFER: Well, what -- if it does come down to, yes, the Russians are responsible for this, then what should the United States do? What should our response be?
KERRY: Well, there are many things that are options and are already options, Bob.
We are in conversation now with our European counterparts. We hope this is a wakeup call for some countries in Europe that have been reluctant to move. President Obama took steps unilaterally. He took them on his own the day before this event, and he imposed very tough new sanctions in the banking sector, in the energy sector, in the defense sector.
And there are still other sanctions could be put in place if it was necessary. Our hope is that President Putin will put the actions behind his words, that we can join together in order to help end this separatist effort, bring them into the politics of Ukraine, and try to, you know, help Ukraine to be able to move forward.
And, incidentally, you know, in the last months, we have been successful in having an election in Ukraine, having a new president, in being able to have a new government formed. This deserves the support of Russia to be able to build a peaceful, not confrontational and separatist insurgency, but to create a peaceful process to be able to have a Ukraine whose sovereignty is respected and where it is not a pawn in some unnecessary struggle between East and West.
We have said to Russia, we want Ukraine to be a bridge between the East and the West. And it can look in both directions. But the way Russia is currently play this dual-track policy, saying one thing, do another, is really threatening both larger interests, as well as that region, and threatening Ukraine itself.
SCHIEFFER: Mr. Secretary, let me shift to the situation in Israel.
Hamas on their Web site are now taking credit for killing 14 Israeli soldiers in the latest ground action in the Gaza. Can you confirm that? Do we know that there have been Israeli casualties?
KERRY: I think there were some casualties reported a little while ago, Bob, but it's not up to me to be reporting Israeli casualties. It is up to -- you know, that will be done in the proper course and process.
But let me say this. Israel is responding to an intransigent Hamas that was offered a cease-fire and didn't want to take it. We support the Egyptian effort to have a cease-fire, which Israel joined into, which does not have preconditions.
And then there is a promise of sitting down and dealing with those underlying issues that need to be dealt with. But Hamas is trying to insist that, as a reward for their terrorist behavior, things be decided ahead of time. And we support Israel and the international community's right not to be extorted by terrorism.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHIEFFER: Are you going to -- let me just ask you this.
KERRY: Yes.
SCHIEFFER: Are you planning to go out there to try to do what you can to increase the chances of a cease-fire?
KERRY: I am planning to go, and probably very shortly. The president and I have talked about this as recently as two days -- a day-and-a-half ago. We are supposed to be in touch again today. It may be that he will ask me to leave immediately.
But we have been working very closely with all of the parties, and in touch with them. And I think, if the president deems that this is the moment that is appropriate, obviously, we will go immediately.
But I think there are conversations taking place today with Prime Minister Netanyahu and others, and hopefully we will have a decision in short order.
SCHIEFFER: All right. Mr. Secretary, thank you so much for joining me this morning.
KERRY: Thank you, sir.
SCHIEFFER: Thank you.
Our foreign correspondent, Clarissa Ward, was in Moscow listening to the secretary.
Clarissa, how is what he just said going to go down there?
CLARISSA WARD, CBS NEWS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bob, it is really anybody's guess.
We have been working the phones all day trying to get some reaction from the Russian leadership to this sort of growing litany of evidence that appears to indicate a Russian role in this crisis. And, so far, there has been radio silence. Even President Putin himself has not been seen or heard from, from Friday, when he issued a brief statement essentially saying that an international, impartial investigation needs to take place.
But, of course, Bob, in these situations, actions speak louder than words. And, as Secretary Kerry said, there is no real evidence yet that President Putin has tried to used his considerable influence with the rebels to get them to facilitate that investigation to open up the crash site and give the investigators unfettered access.
SCHIEFFER: All right. Well, Clarissa, keep us posted. Thank you.
And joining us now for more on this story, CBS News senior national security contributor, formerly the number two man at the CIA, Michael Morell, plus CBS News homeland security correspondent Bob Orr, and our CBS News national security correspondent, David Martin.
Mike, I am going to go to you with the same question I had for the secretary. What else do we need to know here? It seems pretty clear that Russia was deeply involved in this. And if -- if they were, what do we do now?
MICHAEL MORELL, CBS NEWS SENIOR SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: There are -- Bob, there are different levels of Russian responsibility here. One is the fact that they created these separatists, they encouraged them, they funded them, they have equipped them. That is a level of responsibility all by itself. That is already established. We're there.
There is a second level of responsibility in terms of, did they give this particular weapon system to the separate tests? The evidence on that sounds to be mount -- as to be mounting. The Ukrainians are now claiming it. The secretary all but said it a few minutes ago. I think we are there too.
And then the third level of responsibility is, were Russian special forces on site? Did they assist in the firing? That, we won't know. I don't think we are going to learn the answers to those questions from a forensic investigation of the crash site. We are only going to learn those answers from intelligence.
But it does seem that there is significant Russian complicity here to me. So, that means, first step is to Mr. Putin. What does he do? And he really has two choices here. He can come out and take some responsibility for this, just as the Soviet Union did in the shoot-down of the South Korean airliner in 1993, and really pull the separatists back and really bring peace to Eastern Ukraine.
I don't think he will do that, though. I think he is going to continue to deny. That means it is going to have to come back to us in terms of what we do. And there's really two choices, I think. One is to ramp up the sanctions significantly. They have been very modest to date. Ramping them up significantly, and providing much more assistance to the Ukrainian government, I think those are the two options.
SCHIEFFER: Bob Orr, you just heard Mike say he thinks it going to be -- the answers here are going to come from an intelligence investigation, not a crime scene investigation, as it were.
Is it possible, now that they are hauling off these black boxes, the bodies and so forth are being moved -- obviously, they had to be moved just for health reasons -- what -- are we going to -- what are we going to find out here on this?
BOB ORR, CBS NEWS HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Not much. I agree with Mike. This is going to be intelligence-driven.
What the crash scene can do for us is can validate the intelligence finding. If we get access, independent, verifiable access to the wreckage, you can look for telltale signs of like pitting and high-explosive residue on the plane skin. You can look for the way the metal has buckled. Those things would confirm a missile strike, which we already know happened.
The other thing is, much has been made about the black boxes. The rebels have paraded them through the field now. Apparently, they are in Donetsk and maybe they're en route to ICAO. That's the international treaty organization.
But the fact of the matter is the black boxes can do very little here, other than to confirm it was a normal flight and then we had a sudden cessation of data consistent with a high-altitude explosion, Bob. SCHIEFFER: So, David, what about this circumstantial evidence?
DAVID MARTIN, CBS NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, the separatists could have gotten these SA-11 surface-to-air missiles from two places.
One, they could have captured them from the Ukrainian military when they were seizing Ukrainian military bases, or they could have gotten them from the Russians. U.S. intelligence believes it can account for all of the SA-11s belonging to the Ukrainian military. So that leaves Russia. And now there is evidence that the SA-11s have actually been seen moving across the border from the separatist-held area of the Ukraine into Russia.
It adds up to a circumstantial case, but a circumstantial case.
SCHIEFFER: So what is next?
MORELL: So, what is next is, what does Vladimir Putin do? I think the fact that he has disappeared for the last several days is interesting. It means he is trying to figure out what his next step is.
And what do we do and what do the Europeans do? And, as the secretary said, we are in conversations with them.
SCHIEFFER: Could this in some way backfire on the Russians, as I think probably the shoot-down of that Korean airliner by the Soviets did? I mean, world opinion seemed to change after that.
MORELL: I think that was, Bob, a turning point in the Cold War, because it really demonstrated to the world what the Soviet Union was all about.
I think that this event has the potential to make clear to the world what the world is all about, that he is a thug and that he is a bully.
ORR: I think one thing about the crime scene part of this that I didn't mention before, Bob, is that missile launcher is long gone, right? It is not there anymore. And the wreckage has been picked through and cherry-picked to a degree that Mr. Putin can leave the rest of it there, and it can't tell us a definitive story.
So this has already been corrupted to the point where the physical side of this is even less important than it would have been otherwise.
SCHIEFFER: What can we expect from our side, David?
MARTIN: Well, Mike mentioned increased aid to Ukraine.
Right now, the U.S. is providing so-called nonlethal military equipment to the Ukrainian military. And the obvious ramp-up would be to start providing them with lethal. But when we asked that question on Friday, the answer was no consideration is being given to providing Ukraine with lethal weaponry that they could use against the Russians or the separatists.
SCHIEFFER: All right. Thank you all.
We will be back in one minute with a lot more FACE THE NATION.
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SCHIEFFER: New York Republican Congressman Pete King is a member of both the Homeland Security and Intelligence committees. He is joining us this morning from New York.
You heard the secretary. You just heard our discussion, Congressman. Isn't this coming down to, we need to decide whether these people, the Russians, were behind this or not? The question I asked the secretary, well, what else do we need to know here?
REP. PETER KING (R-NY), HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Bob, I agree with you. I think Secretary Kerry laid out the case against Russia. There can be no reasonable doubt now that Russia was involved, that Putin was involved.
By supplying this type of weaponry to a group of thugs, like the Ukrainian separatists, you have to bear responsibility for what happens after that. Now, this really is a game-changer.
That, I think, is the point that the U.S. and our Western allies have to make clear to Putin, that the rules of the game have now changed. He has violated civilized norms. And I think that we have to take very severe economic sanctions and also ones that are symbolic.
For instance, I think we should talk about canceling the World Cup. Why should countries be going in the World Cup to Moscow? Why should, for instance, Aeroflot be allowed to continue to have landing rights?
So long as Putin is not allowing access to the crash site, so long as the crime scene there is being totally polluted, this man has shown that he is really incapable of functioning in a civilized world. This is going back to the days of Stalin and Khrushchev and Brezhnev in the way he is responding to a crisis which he caused and which everyone knows he did, and yet he goes underground.
This is what a mafia guy does. This is what a goon does, not a world leader, not someone in the civilized world.
SCHIEFFER: Well, you point out canceling Aeroflot flights to the United States. That is exactly one of the things that Ronald Reagan did. He stopped all negotiating on all fronts after the Soviets shot down that Korean plane. And he also turned away Aeroflot flights coming into the United States. And that ban stayed in effect for three years.
But I'm wondering, do you think even something that would have an impact on Mr. Putin? Because, right now, nothing we have done so far seems to have had any influence whatsoever on what he is doing. KING: Bob, I think it would if Western allies went along with it.
And I have been so disappointed in many European nations. But I have to give Prime Minister David Cameron of the U.K. tremendous credit. In his statement he put out today, he was very critical of the other European countries, who somehow want to go back to a Munich- type mentality and assume that this is going to disappear, this is going to go away.
It is not. They have to stand up to Putin. So if we had our Western allies, our European allies go along with this, cooperate with us, and a impose severe sanctions -- and I give Cameron for leading the way in Europe -- then it would have an impact.
Also, we could have our people just start putting out the names and locations of all the bank accounts that Putin and his goons, you know, where their money is hidden, all of the stolen assets that are hidden around the world by the Russians. We have been playing by sort of Marquis of Queensbury rules with someone who is really the ultimate dirty fighter.
SCHIEFFER: All right.
KING: And we -- to me, there is no moral equivalency here. He is not part of the civilized nation.
SCHIEFFER: All right.
Well, Congressman King, thank you so much.
KING: Bob, thank you.
SCHIEFFER: And we will be back in a moment with some personal thoughts.
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SCHIEFFER: On the "Evening News" the other night, I was making the point that there was so much turmoil in so many places, that you could make the argument the world was more unstable today than it had been at the height of the Cold War with the Soviet Union.
The next day, the airliner was shot down. Someone asked me if I could remember a time when the country faced so many complex problems at once. Well, of course I can. The good news, if there is any these days, is that the country has survived many crises. The United States is a tough old bird.
Still, that hardly lessens the danger of these days , the shooting down of an airliner, the kidnapping of innocents that has set Israel aflame, the fragmenting of Iraq, which has received almost no attention this week. Events of these places are events that could trigger wider wars.
Overnight, we found out more about the downing of the airliner, but the question now is, what should the United States do if we find the Russians are directly responsible?
First, we must not draw red lines we are unable or unwilling to enforce. But we must convey to the Russian leader in public and private in ways he can understand that such behavior endangers our national interests and security, and cannot be tolerated, and what penalty he can expect if it continues -- back in a minute.
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SCHIEFFER: Some of our stations are leaving us now.
For most of you, we will be right back with more FACE THE NATION.
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SCHIEFFER: And welcome back to FACE THE NATION.
Martin Indyk was the U.S. special Mideast envoy.
He was our negotiator in the peace talks because the Israelis and the Palestinians before they collapsed.
Before that, he was our U.S. ambassador to Israel in the Clinton administration.
He is back at the Brookings Institution now.
Ambassador, the for coming.
You heard Secretary Kerry.
It sounds all but just to be announced that he's leaving for the Middle East pretty quick, to try to do something to get peace talks started there.
Where does he go?
Who does he talk to?
What's our best chance to just at least get this killing stopped so people can talk to one another?
MARTIN INDYK, THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: I think he probably heads to Cairo. Ban Ki-moon, the U.N. secretary-general, is already on his way there. And Abu Mazen, the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, is -- is, I think, he's in Qatar or -- and will also be heading to Cairo.
So I suspect that -- that Cairo is -- is going to be the scene of the action.
And the purpose is to achieve a cease-fire, obviously. And what that requires in pavole (ph) is for Hamas to decide that it's in its interests to stop firing those rockets.
SCHIEFFER: Well, so far, Hamas doesn't seem to be answering to anyone. We know Mahmoud Abbas has asked the question, why are you sending these rockets into Israel?
Even he, as the head of the Palestinian Authority, is questioning them.
Who can get their attention and get it stopped?
INDYK: Well, it's -- it's the real question at this moment. The Egyptians have a kind of chokehold on Gaza and they can influence it by being willing to open the -- the passages, one of Hamas' demands.
But they don't seem to be keen to let Hamas off the hook of Israel's battering at the moment.
Abu Mazen himself can have influence. And I think that's where the focus now needs to be. He has a reconciliation agreement with Hamas. He is the one that we need to see take control of Gaza. And that obviously is a long and -- and difficult process, but it needs to start with a cease-fire.
So the question is whether Egypt, the United States, perhaps with the help of Qatar, which provides the financial leverage, can convince Hamas that it's in the interests of the Palestinian people now to stop firing, in favor of a process that leads to the Palestinian Authority taking control in Gaza.
SCHIEFFER: Prime Minister Netanyahu was saying this morning he thought the only real solution here is the demilitarization, if I understand it, of Gaza.
Who can do that?
INDYK: Right. Well, there's only two ways to demilitarize Gaza, either by Israeli force, which, as we've seen this morning, will cause a huge number of casualties on both sides now, which would be, I think, a terrible development.
The alternative is to get a cease-fire and to have some international force. Obviously the process of disarming all of the militias in Gaza, in the context of a political process that leads to the lifting of the siege of Gaza, reconstruction in Gaza, all of that can only be done through the Palestinian Authority and an international force, perhaps a U.N. mandate to do that in cooperation with the Palestinian Authority.
SCHIEFFER: Where would you think might be willing to step up and do that?
I haven't noticed people volunteering to step in and be an international force to...
(CROSSTALK)
SCHIEFFER: -- control the Gaza.
INDYK: It's a big ask. And it can only be done in the context of -- of a situation in which there's a different future for the people of Gaza, one in which life can return to normal, the restrictions on the passages and the flow of goods and people are removed.
That can only happen in the context of -- of a disarming. So it's -- it needs to be, in effect, a package deal in which the international community and the legitimate authority, which is the Palestinian Authority, together insist that Hamas now go along with the process that will serve the Palestinian people in Gaza.
SCHIEFFER: Ambassador, do you think that this -- this outbreak in any way had something to do with the breakdown of the peace talks between the Palestinians and the Israelis?
You were a big part of that, of course, as one of the negotiators.
INDYK: Sure. I think that Secretary Kerry has been warning, from the outset, when everybody wondered why he was trying to resolve this conflict, that the alternative to a resolution of the conflict is this kind of chronic conflict with -- with its horrendous toll taken on both sides.
And -- and so, you know, that was the purpose behind trying. That was the purpose be -- behind trying to resolve the conflict in a way that would put an end to all of this.
I mean we've had three times this situation repeat itself over the last six years.
Are we really just going to go back to the status quo ante?
Or are people going to say, finally, enough is enough?
We need to resolve this conflict.
That's what we tried to do. Perhaps coming out of this, will have a better chance.
SCHIEFFER: Do -- do -- does Hamas have a -- just an un -- this -- this number of rockets that they have, do we have any idea, have they used up most of them?
Do they have a lot more?
INDYK: The estimate when this -- when this conflict started was that they had 20,000.
SCHIEFFER: Really?
INDYK: And so they're firing at approximately 150 a day. They've got a long way to go. Plus, they have an indigenous capability to manufacture these. These are crude rockets, some of them made out of sewage pipes. And they -- you can see, they don't have much impact, except to terrorize the -- the population of Israel.
SCHIEFFER: Do you think that the prime minister, Prime Minister Netanyahu, may have underestimated their strength now?
INDYK: I think that it was known they had those rockets. It was known that they had the tunnels. So I don't think there was an underestimation.
The problem, Bob, has always been what do you do about it, because they -- they hide amongst the civilian population. That is their shield. And international opprobrium is -- is their protection.
And -- and, you know, Netanyahu has been very cautious in terms of getting dragged into the war that he's now being dragged into with precisely the predictable results.
So I think that the hesitation was not about a lack of knowledge, it was that, what do you do about it?
And there are only two things to do about it. Either you just kind of restore the status quo ante, and we know where that leads, conflict again in another two years, if -- if not sooner. Or you try to find a more, uh, comprehensive resolution, which starts in Gaza with trying to take control from Hamas and reestablishing the Palestinian Authority's control. And then leads to a -- a renewed effort to resolve this Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
SCHIEFFER: Ambassador, thank you so much.
We really appreciate it.
And we wish you all the best in trying to resolve this thing.
We'll be right back with our panel of analysts in a moment.
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SCHIEFFER: We're back now with Kimberley Strassel, who is a columnist for "The Wall Street Journal."
"Washington Post" columnist David Ignatius, plus "New York Times" White House correspondent, Peter Baker, and CBS News State Department correspondent, Margaret Brennan.
You know, once, when I was a young reporter covering the Ford White House and the president called on me at a news conference, and my mind went totally blank. I couldn't think of a question.
(LAUGHTER)
SCHIEFFER: So I said, what about the Russians?
(LAUGHTER)
SCHIEFFER: Well, you know...
(CROSSTALK)
SCHIEFFER: -- he gave me an answer that made the front page of Peterson's (ph) the next day.
(LAUGHTER)
SCHIEFFER: And the more I think about it, it was a pretty good question.
(LAUGHTER)
SCHIEFFER: (INAUDIBLE) what about the Russians and what happens now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a great question.
It's a universal question and one that we'll be asking not just today, but for many weeks to come.
The Russians are put in a bad position here, because they're now on the defensive in the world in what President Obama clearly hopes is the reluctance that Europeans and others around the world have shown toward a tougher stance toward Moscow will be changed as a result of the international outrage.
It's not just in Ukraine anymore, it's 192 dead Dutch passengers. It's people in Australia, Malaysia, around the world, who have now been brought into this one time local conflict.
And the question is, how does Russia respond to it?
And it's really not clear at this point.
SCHIEFFER: What -- what do you think, David?
I mean what if we determine, beyond a reasonable doubt -- and I'm beginning to wonder how much more evidence they need here, that it was Russia that was directly responsible for this? At least they put everything in place. Maybe there wasn't a Russian there to say pull the trigger.
IGNATIUS: I thought we heard Secretary Kerry pretty close to that point this morning on your show and it seems clear they haven't decided yet what the next U.S. step would be. I think for now they're putting a question to President Putin. They're saying you must stop this double game in which you talk about a resolution of this crisis and you continue to pump weapons in to irresponsible reckless separatists. You have to be, as Secretary Kerry said, you have to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
If Putin steps away, and we can only imagine what he is thinking in retreat now about this mess that he has caught himself in, if he steps away, then new diplomatic doors open up. If he doesn't -- and that's really the question you are asking, what steps are then taken?
I think they are going to be driven by Europe. I think the Dutch prime minister when he calls the behavior of the Russians and their allies disgusting, he is furious and I think that drives a new stage of this where the economic sanctions the U.S. has started become much tougher. And then you see, begin to see the real weakness of Putin's position.
SCHIEFFER: Kim, do you think the administration was a little slow to recognize the gravity of this?
STRASSEL: A little? I mean, the president talked about how this should be a wake-up call. The wake-up call should have been when Russia annexed the Crimea months ago. In fact, you can go back further and maybe when Russia was rolling into Georgia in 2008.
Putin, all the words that were used here today, thug, bully are correct, but it is worse than that, he is would be czar. He has ambitions of a greater Russia and I think the worry about what we just heard here is that why would he respond to the west simply saying you need to be part of the solution? No one has done anything up to now.
Look, back in June, all of the European leaders got together. We had the G7 summit in Brussels. And he was told if he did not stop backing the separatists there would be more sanctions. That deadline came and went. We're now in the middle of July, the United States finally did something on its own. The Europeans have done nothing. It has got to be more than just sanctions. There has to in fact be lethal aid to the Ukraine that will actually send the message to Russia that we will continue to fund them and support them and help them until he stops doing this. That's the only thing he is going to listen to.
SCHIEFFER: So what is the administration thinking about on that front, Margaret?
BRENNAN: Well, Secretary Kerry spoke to his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov yesterday, and read him the Riot Act, but it is unclear whether that does anything because up until now all the diplomatic engagement at that level really hasn't been successful.
Hillary Clinton told our colleague Charlie Rose the other day that that lethal aid should be happening, that should go to the Ukrainian government. There has been support among policy makers of the Pentagon and State Department for that, but it's unclear whether the White House is moving from its position that they just don't want to go there quite yet.
So I think sanctions and this idea of stepping up, freezing, I mean for the Treasure to go and freeze dollar denominated transactions for some big companies, Russian companies, is not insignificant, but to really have the full pressure, has to come from the EU.
I think also this is a test of whether Putin does have command and control over some of these paramilitaries on the ground. That border between Russia and Ukraine has been quite open. There are a lot of players in there with differing agendas. It is going to be interesting to see if he can get them to comply, if he chooses to go that route.
SCHIEFFER: There are reasons, obviously, practical reasons here that some of the Europeans are not as anxious to put these sanctions on. What will it take to convince them that there needs to be a unified front here?
BAKER: It is going to be very interesting. One of the players, one of the countries that has been most concerned about losing economic ties to Russia through all of this has been The Netherlands so this is a very interesting moment right. They have -- they actually have turned out to be one of Russia's largest trading partners, Russia is one of their largest trading partners. Royal Dutch Shell has a lot of interest there. They have not been interested in losing that business.
The prime minister, as you say now has a different dynamic. He has got a home country that has lost more people, as they like to say, then we did as a proportion on 9/11. And he has to go into the next round and explain what he thinks ought to be done.
The European foreign ministers will meet on Tuesday. And it is hard to imagine if the Dutch come in there and say we have to act strongly, that the rest of the Europeans don't find that a moral leadership that they have to follow on some level.
But how far are they willing to go, really is still in the air.
SCHIEFFER: And for Germany, David, it is all about energy and where they get their gas.
IGNATIUS: Yes. I did some reporting last week to look carefully at what is ahead this winter under different scenarios and the problem is that Europe is going to face a very cold winter. Europe depends approximately 30 percent on Russia for natural gas supplies and there is no way in the short run that the United States scan make up for that.
We can reduce the impact, and I would hope that in the next few days there will be the most serious discussions about what if all Russian gas was cut off? What would we do? What would they do? How would they manage supplies and pipelines? Because unless you go into this knowing your contingency plan, you really are vulnerable to this energy weapon that Putin plays every chance he gets and the Europeans are afraid of it.
SCHIEFFER: Well, I mean, it's the European gas station.
IGNATIUS: It's the European gas station. We have got to find them another -- we've got to find them a jerry can and another gas station down the road.
STRASSEL: But this gets to the question, the United States -- I understand President Obama's reluctance, obviously, to -- I mean, the issue of lethal force, but one thing that's just been obvious that we should have have been doing from the beginning is unleashing the might and force of the American economy on Putin. And they should have said right away we are going to do whatever we have to do to make sure that we are replacing, helping with European gas stores, talking about other trading relationships and things that the Europeans themselves, who we are demanding do more, feel that they have the flexibility do push away Russia somewhat and that they will still have the backstop of the United States and its economy behind them.
SCHIEFFER: You know, beyond the diplomacy and maybe below the diplomacy, this scene of what is transpiring there out in that field, where you heard the secretary say, drunken rebels were out there, you know, going through these bodies and I guess the stench must have been almost unbearable, at least they have gotten them into refrigerated area.
But apparently, Margaret, there were reports also taken of some of the black boxes, the recording devices out of that. That is obviously of great concern to the administration.
BRENNAN: It is. And the Ukrainian government has alleged that those black boxes they say they have recordings of planning between militants on the ground and what they say is Russian help saying get those black boxes back to Moscow, don't let the monitors on the ground from a group called the OSCE get them first.
But it is unclear whether that black box is really going to be intelligence that tells us what we already presume here and what the secretary laid out which is they do believe Russia is complicit if not responsible.
The Ukrainian government, however, is going far beyond that. They are saying Russian military servicemen helped pull the trigger here and that is sort of the next step here in intelligence, is showing the level of Russian help, but the Ukrainian government is out there saying, they know what is happening, and they are waiting for us to all sort of catch up.
SCHIEFFER: How much credibility do they put in those tapes that the Ukrainians have released? Because in one of those tapes, our Clarissa Ward, who had been there during the trouble of Crimea, she recognized, she says, the voice of one of those people as part of the crew that detained her crew and beat up their camera man. And now he seems to be one of the people who is talking to the Russians about shooting down of this aircraft.
(CROSSTALK)
BRENNAN: Well, I certainly haven't been waved away from the recordings by some officials, but that is not something the U.S. is putting out there right now, that's Ukrainian service recording, but they obviously also have their own agenda. And that is what has been so difficult in covering this Ukraine conflict is so much of it has been extreme propaganda by both sides over the past six months.
But with this incident it is going to come down not to propaganda but to the specifics of what intelligence can lay out. And they are going to know with this level of weaponry what happened.
SCHIEFFER: David, let's talk a little bit about what is going on in Israel and in the Gaza this morning. Obviously, the secretary of state is about to get involved here, but as I was saying to Ambassador Indyk, who does he talk to now? What is the best chance? Where do we go now to find some diplomatic solution? And somebody you can have some control over Hamas?
IGNATIUS: Well, as Martin Indyk said on your show, the secretary will head probably tonight to Cairo, an Egyptian led diplomacy working with the United States trying to draw in Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority leader into a cease-fire process is the game.
We have seen an interesting process of evolving war goals. When the Israelis started this operation, they talked about an extended period of quiet. They just wanted the missiles to stop. Then they began talking about closing off the tunnels, which are being used to attack Israeli forces, that was a more aggressive push for acquiring ground forces. Now there's beginning to be talk about disarmament. And that is an ambitious war aim. And the truth is, if you try to get that by military force you are in a nightmare, it's like invading Lebanon. I don't think the Israelis want to do that.
So I have my eyes on a process going forward, Secretary Kerry will start with the Egyptians, that would try to create a political foundation for the Palestinian Authority to begin to get a new government in place in Gaza that could make demilitarization work.
Israel is going to have to keep pushing on the weapon sites right up to the end of whatever pre-diplomatic moment there is.
STRASSEL: I mean, I think the problem, though, is that nobody does have control over Hamas, and also right now nobody wants to have control over Hamas. Egypt is very happy to have Israel dealing with this situation at the moment. They don't necessarily want to step into this.
And so as much as everybody wants to talk about a cease-fire, I think the unfortunate reality is that the only way you make Hamas stop at the moment is that you go in and you degrade them politically and militarily that they feel that they then have no other option but to come to the table.
And that involves going in and destroying these tunnels, getting rid of the rocketry that's in there, and also targeted strikes on its military and political leadership. And Israel has tried this before in 2009, in 2012, and went in for a week at a time, didn't finish that job, and then now have had to go back in again.
And hopefully this time they realize that you have got to actually finish it before there can be these talks.
BRENNAN: I think the channel is you can't militarily defeat an idea. And I think one of the questions you put to Martin Indyk was really spot on, to say, did you underestimate, did the Israelis underestimate Hamas?
Because what you've heard from U.S. officials, certainly from Egyptian officials up to this point, is how incredibly weak Hamas has gotten with the new el-Sisi government in Egypt.
Because not only have they shut down tunnels, but they are arresting so many of the sort of brethren, the Muslim Brotherhood brethren of Hamas within their territory they control.
So it's not clear what credibility the Egyptians actually have with Hamas other than they can control access along the shared border. The Qataris are going to be a very important channel here.
And they have been reaching out to Hamas in recent days, to the leader Mashal. But it is not clear really what that is all going to add up to, whether there is any diplomatic traction at this point yet.
SCHIEFFER: You know, I think one of the great ironies here is when I was out there in May, and people were telling me on the Palestinian side, look, the reason that we have joined up with Hamas is because they are so weak and that is the only reason they wanted to make this new arrangement with the Palestinian Authority, because they were so weak.
Well, it appears to me they're driving the boat right now, Peter.
BAKER: Well, they're driving the boat, but whether that is successful or not is hard to imagine. You know, they have shown that they can sneak into Israel proper with, you know, captured Israeli uniforms and do a lot of damage. And that has a disproportionate impact in some ways even as they are taking a lot of damage on their side.
I mean, we talk about Egypt, what's really interesting is how different it has changed in two years. Two years ago, the last time this happened, President Obama sent Hillary Clinton, then the secretary of state.
And the person she was dealing with there was President Morsi. And as Margaret was alluding to, in effect, that is the older brother of Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood. They had a friendship, a connection, an alliance, a relationship that Sisi does not.
The current military-born government of Egypt is in fact, you know, on the opposite side. So when they proposed the cease-fire, they had nobody listening to them. And the question is whether that changes in the next few days.
SCHIEFFER: Well, I think we have to leave it there. The efforts to get a cease-fire continue, but I don't think we are anywhere close to it right now. Well, thank you all very much.
We will be back in a moment with -- I want to tell you about a new book that is out about a legend here at CBS News.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCHIEFFER: I want to call your attention to a new book by Tony Silvia out this week about an old friend, the late CBS News correspondent Robert Pierpoint, the last reporter at CBS hired by Ed Murrow.
Over a 40-year career, Bob covered the Korean War for CBS, and later covered the White House with a series of correspondents, including Dan Rather, me, and Lesley Stahl.
Every newsroom needs someone who has been there long enough who knows the history and context, and is unselfish enough to tell the new hires where to go and who to call to get answers.
For many of us here, Bob Pierpoint was that person. This book is a fine account of Bob's work and journalism in the last half of the 20th Century.
Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCHIEFFER: Well, that's it for us today. Be sure to stay tuned to CBS for the latest on these two big stories, plus all the other news tonight, every night on the "CBS EVENING NEWS," and tomorrow morning on "CBS THIS MORNING."
That's it for us, see you next week. And the truth is, if you try to get that by military force, you in a nightmare, it's like invading Lebanon. I don't think the Israelis wants to do that.
So I have my eyes on a process going forward, Secretary Kerry will start with the Egyptians, that would try to create a political foundation for the Palestinian Authority to begin to get a new government in place in Gaza that could make demilitarization work.
Israel is going to have to keep pushing on the weapon sites right up to the end of whatever pre-diplomatic moment there is.
STRASSEL: I mean, I think the problem, though, is that nobody does have control over Hamas, and also right now nobody wants to have control over Hamas. Egypt is very happy to have Israel dealing with this situation at the moment. They don't necessarily want to step into this.
And so as much as everybody wants to talk about a cease-fire, I think the unfortunate reality is that the only way you make Hamas stop at the moment is that you go in and you degrade them politically and militarily that they feel that they then have no other option but to come to the table.
And that involves going in and destroying these tunnels, getting rid of the rocketry that's in there, and also targeted strikes on its military and political leadership. And Israel has tried this before in 2009, in 2012, and went in for a week at a time, didn't finish that job, and then now have had to go back in again.
And hopefully this time they realize that you have got to actually finish it before there can be these talks.
BRENNAN: I think the channel is you can't militarily defeat an idea. And I think one of the questions you put to Martin Indyk was really spot on, to say, did you underestimate, did the Israelis underestimate Hamas? Because what you've heard from U.S. officials, certainly from Egyptian officials up to this point, is how incredibly weak Hamas has gotten with the new el-Sisi government in Egypt.
Because not only have they shut down tunnels, but they are arresting so many of the sort of brethren, the Muslim Brotherhood brethren of Hamas within their territory they control.
So it's not clear what credibility the Egyptians actually have with Hamas other than they can control access along the shared border. The Qataris are going to be a very important channel here.
And they have been reaching out to Hamas in recent days, to the leader Mashal. But it is not clear really what that is all going to add up to, whether there is any diplomatic traction at this point yet.
SCHIEFFER: You know, I think one of the great ironies here is when I was out there in May, and people were telling me on the Palestinian side, look, the reason that we have joined up with Hamas is because they are so weak and that is the only reason they wanted to make this new arrangement with the Palestinian Authority, because they were so weak.
Well, it appears to me they're driving the boat right now, Peter.
BAKER: Well, they're driving the boat, but whether that is successful or not is hard to imagine. You know, they have shown that they can sneak into Israel proper with, you know, captured Israeli uniforms and do a lot of damage. And that has a disproportionate impact in some ways even as they are taking a lot of damage on their side.
I mean, we talk about Egypt, what's really interesting is how different it has changed in two years. Two years ago, the last time this happened, President Obama sent Hillary Clinton, then the secretary of state.
And the person she was dealing with there was President Morsi. And as Margaret was alluding to, in effect, that is the older brother of Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood. They had a friendship, a connection, an alliance, a relationship that Sisi does not.
The current military-born government of Egypt is in fact, you know, on the opposite side. So when they proposed the cease-fire, they had nobody listening to them. And the question is whether that changes in the next few days.
SCHIEFFER: Well, I think we have to leave it there. The efforts to get a cease-fire continue, but I don't think we are anywhere close to it right now. Well, thank you all very much.
We will be back in a moment with -- I want to tell you about a new book that is out about a legend here at CBS News.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SCHIEFFER: I want to call your attention to a new book by Tony Silvia out this week about an old friend, the late CBS News correspondent Robert Pierpoint, the last reporter at CBS hired by Ed Murrow.
Over a 40-year career, Bob covered the Korean War for CBS, and later covered the White House with a series of correspondents, including Dan Rather, me, and Lesley Stahl.
Every newsroom needs someone who has been there long enough who knows the history and context, and is unselfish enough to tell the new hires where to go and who to call to get answers.
For many of us here, Bob Pierpoint was that person. This book is a fine account of Bob's work and journalism in the last half of the 20th Century.
Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCHIEFFER: Well, that's it for us today. Be sure to stay tuned to CBS for the latest on these two big stories, plus all the other news tonight, every night on the "CBS EVENING NEWS," and tomorrow morning on "CBS THIS MORNING."
That's it for us, see you next week.
***END OF TRANSCRIPT***
PRESS CONTACT: Jackie Berkowitz, berkowitzj@cbsnews.com(202) 600-6407