"Face the Nation" transcript: November 20, 2011
Below is a rush transcript of "Face the Nation" on November 20, 2011, hosted by CBS News chief Washington correspondent Bob Schieffer. The guests are Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul, Republican Pennsylvania Sen. Pat Toomey,and Democratic West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Today on FACE THE NATION, they're up, they're down as the Republican campaign roller-coaster takes yet another turn.
JON STEWART: And so the names of the fallen sound out: Bachmann, Perry, Cain, perhaps Ron Paul will now get his shot as the media front-runner.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Don't look now but it happened. Ron Paul may have been a fringe candidate before, but he has moved into a statistical tie for the lead in Iowa, where the first contest will be held in just a matter of weeks. Is he surprised--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL (Republican Presidential Candidate/R-Texas): Not so much. I think we've been there a long time. I think they've been in denial.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Nor is he bashful about where he says our economic problems begin--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: The Federal Reserve is immoral. It's unconstitutional and it's a disaster.
BOB SCHIEFFER: As for foreign policy and a strong national defense--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: Big military spending diminishes our defense. I'd much rather see that money spent at home.
BOB SCHIEFFER: He's with us to talk about that and a lot more. Then we'll turn to the deepening Washington gridlock over taxes and the deficit. We'll hear from Pennsylvania's Republican Senator Pat Toomey, a member of the so-called supercommittee that's grappling with that. And we'll bring in West Virginia's Democratic Senator Joe Manchin, who has his own ideas about the messed Congress's end as we explore the broader question. Is all this the reason that Paris Hilton, according to some polls, is now more popular than Congress?
This is FACE THE NATION.
ANNOUNCER: From CBS News in Washington, FACE THE NATION with Bob Schieffer.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And good morning again. We begin this morning with Congressman Ron Paul. The polls, Mister Paul, suggest that you're now in the thick of it out in Iowa; basically in a statistical tie with Romney, with Cain, and with Mister Gingrich. So I want to ask you some questions. Now that you're among the front-runners, we need to know more about your positions on the issues. And I want to start with foreign policy because your statements over the years posted on your website and elsewhere some of the things you have said in the debates suggest that you believe that 9/11 happened because of actions that the United States took. Is that correct?
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL (Republican Presidential Candidate/R-Texas): Oh, I-- I-- I think there's an influence. And that's exactly what, you know, the 9/11 Commission said. That's what the DOD has said. And that's also what the CIA has said and that's what a lot of researchers have said. And just remember immediately after 9/11 we removed the base from Saudi Arabia. So there is a connection. That doesn't do the whole full explanation. But our policies definitely had an influence. And you talk to the people who committed it and those individuals who would like to do us harm, they say, yes, we don't like American bombs to be falling on our country. And we don't like the intervention that we do in their nations. So to deny this I think is very dangerous. But to argue the case that they want to do us harm because we're free and prosperous I think is a very, very dangerous notion because it's not true.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, I-- I would-- I would question the import of what some of those commissions found that-- that you've cited there. But basically what you're saying, Mister Paul, is that it was America's fault that 9/11 happened and it was our fault that it happened?
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: No. I-- I think that's-- I think that's a misco-- misconstruing of what I'm saying because America is you and I. And we didn't cause it. The average American didn't cause it. But if you have a flawed policy, it may influence it. When Ronald Reagan went in to Lebanon, he was deeply-- he deeply regretted this because he said if he'd been more neutral those Marines wouldn't have died in Lebanon because the policy was flawed. The same thing that McNamara said after the Vietnam War. He wrote in his memoirs that, you know, if-- if he would have changed-- if it-- if we don't learn from our policies, it won't be worth anything. So I'm saying policies have an effect. But that's a far cry from blaming America.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL (overlapping): I mean, in America you're supposed--
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. But-- yeah-- all right.
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL (overlapping): --to be able to criticize your own government. You're supposed to be able to criticize your own government without saying you're un-American.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Of course. But what's your--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL (overlapping): And that's the implication is.
BOB SCHIEFFER: But what-- what you are saying it-- it was the government's fault. That-- that basically is what you're saying. Let me move on to-- from something else.
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: I'm saying the policyma-- the policymakers' fault--
BOB SCHIEFFER: The policymakers fault.
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL (overlapping): --contributed to it.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right.
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL (overlapping): Contributed to it.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me ask you this. Am I correct that your idea of how to discourage Iran from building nuclear weapons is to be nicer to Iran's leaders? Is that correct?
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: Well, I-- I-- no. I think to be-- you know, we have twelve thousand diplomats, I'm suggesting that maybe we ought to use some of them. But just think of how we prevented a nuclear war with the Soviets when the Soviet mi-- missiles were reported in Cuba. We didn't say we're going to attack you. Kennedy and Khrushchev talked and they made a deal. You take your weapons out of Cuba, we'll take them out of Turkey. That's the kind of talk that I want. I don't-- I think the greatest danger now is for us to overreact. And this is what I'm fearful of. Iran doesn't have a bomb. There's no proof. There's no new information regardless of this recent report. And for us to overreact and talk about bombing Iran, that's much more dangerous. We got the--
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: --we got the Libyans to-- to-- we got the Libyans to get rid of their nuclear power and their nuclear weapons. And look at what happened to them.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I-- I--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL (overlapping): So--
BOB SCHIEFFER: Mister Paul--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL (overlapping): We got to understand that.
BOB SCHIEFFER: May I interrupt just for a second. No one has suggested in the U.S. government that we are going to bomb Iran. What they have said is that we're going to impose--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: Ah.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --very tough sanctions. You are against sanctions on Iran, is that correct?
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: Yeah, be-- because sanctions are the initial step to war. I was opposed to all the sanctions for ten years in the bombing that was occurring with Iraq as I said it would lead to war. But if you say nobody is suggesting it, why don't you listen to the debates? I mean listen to--
BOB SCHIEFFER: Mister-- Mister Paul.
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL (overlapping): --the some of the other candidates.
BOB SCHIEFFER: May I correct you. I am listening to the debates. I know there have been some candidates who've talked about that including Mister Romney. The United States government--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: Right.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --has not said we're going to bomb Iran. I mean that-- that's just a prank.
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: No, Bob, actually they haven't said-- obviously, they haven't said that. But the implication is-- is nothing is off the table. You've heard those statements.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, yes. All right. Let's move on then. Do you think there is any place in the world where United States forces should be stationed? You've talked about bringing them home from Afghanistan, from-- from Iraq. Is there any place where you think it helps us to have U.S. forces stationed?
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: No. Other than the fact that I think a submarine is a very worthwhile weapon. And I believe we can defend ourselves with submarines and all our troops back at home. This whole idea that we have to be in a hundred and thirty countries and nine hundred bases; now they've just invented a weapon that can hit any spot in the world in one hour.
BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): So you would--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: I mean, what's this idea? This is old-- this is old-fashioned idea that you have to keep troops on nine hundred bases around the world, makes no sense at all.
BOB SCHIEFFER: How--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: Besides we're bankrupt. We can't afford it any longer.
BOB SCHIEFFER: So you would-- you would-- if you were President, you'd bring home the troops from Japan; you'd bring home the troops from South Korea? You would. Okay.
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: Absolutely. And the people are with-- the people are with me on that because we can't afford it. It'd save us a lot of money. All those troops would spend their money here at home. And besides those troops overseas aggravate our enemies, motivate our enemies. I think it's a danger to our national defense and we can save a lot of money cutting out the military expenditures that contribute nothing to our defense.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. Let me ask you about some domestic things. Your plan to get the country back on a firm financial footing is to close, including among other things, the Department of Education, the Department of Energy, Commerce, Interior, Housing and Urban Development. You would cut back the federal workforce by ten percent. You've also suggested we should close FEMA which is the emergency management agency. I--
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: Right.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --I have to ask you this. What do you do about all the things that those agencies control, run, supervise? For example, what-- what happens to the national parks if you close the Department of the Interior? Do we just let them go by the by or what?
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: No. No-- no way. And-- and the program deals with this, there's transition funds. But we would like to see a lot of land sold off but we're not just going to ignore the parks. No, not-- not at all. I mean the-- the money isn't there. These are departments that are doing too much. The American people are sick and tired of our educational system. Just think of how we've been involved and give out loans and we educate students. The price that-- cost of education goes up. They graduate. They don't have jobs. And they have a trillion dollars worth of debt. We have to question that. This country is in bankruptcy.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right.
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: We have to deal with it. We can't-- we can't remain in denial. And that is my argument. And believe me, this is why I'm getting a good reception on the campaign trail.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. Well, we want to thank you for coming on this morning and for answering the questions. Ron Paul, thanks for being here this morning.
REPRESENTATIVE RON PAUL: Thank-- thank you.
BOB SCHIEFFER: We're going to shift gears now and talk about what's going on in Washington inside the Beltway. And that is this whole business of what are we going to do about the deficit, the so-called supercommittee. Joining us this morning, Pennsylvania Senator Pat Toomey, who's in the studio with us. And, Senator, it looks to me like this so-called supercommittee, you might just call it the business-as-usual committee because it looks like the whole thing's just going to fizzle out. That nothing is going to happen.
SENATOR PAT TOOMEY (R-Pennsylvania): Well, I will acknowledge the time is short now. It's going to be very difficult. But there were twelve members of this committee put in an enormous amount of time and effort into trying to accomplish something. It's not entirely too late yet. It's still-- it's still possible to reach an agreement. But it's going to be tough given where the clock is.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Why? I mean, everybody in America knows that something has to be done. Everybody in America knows there's going to be some bad things that everybody is going to have to take a little--
SENATOR PAT TOOMEY: Yeah.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --bit of the bitter pill. And yet the Congress cannot find a way to come together. Compromise has been a dirty word. Why-- why do you think that's happening, Senator?
SENATOR PAT TOOMEY: You know it's been enormously frustrating for me and for many of my colleagues. As I said we've got twelve good people that worked hard on this. But on the other side, there was an insistence that we have a trillion-dollar tax increase. There was an unwillingness to cut any kind of spending at all unless there was a huge tax increase. Our friend Jim Clyburn, the congressman from South Carolina said-- as recently as last week said twice, in fact, that the Democrats never coalesced around any plan. So it was-- it was just very, very challenging, very, very difficult. There is still an opportunity. There's a plan on the table that would at least take us halfway to our goal which is-- it's on the shelf, it's scored, it's ready to go. If the Democrats would agree to that we could still get something done. If they come back with a counterproposal, we'd work on it.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, I mean, if the dog hadn't stopped to make a phone call--
SENATOR PAT TOOMEY: Yeah.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --I mean it would have caught the rabbit. I mean it's-- it's-- it's all if. As a member of this su- supercommittee, you actually proposed a modest increase in revenues by eliminating loopholes and some deductions.
SENATOR PAT TOOMEY: Yeah.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Some people are calling that a tax increase in exchange for some serious spending cuts and some entitled reform that went nowhere. One of the-- the problems, Senator, is that so many Republicans, I think that two hundred and thirty-eight congressmen, forty-eight senators, including one Democratic Senator Ben Nelson, and two Democratic representatives; plus, all of the GOP candidates, including yourself--Huntsman did not--signed a pledge sponsored by this group called the Americans for Tax Reform. Now this is a group headed by Grover Norquist. He's not a household name but people in Washington are clearly afraid of him. It just so happens that our friend Steve Kroft interviewed Grover Norquist. And they're going to do a story about him tonight on 60 MINUTES. Let's just get a little sample of-- of Grover Norquist here.
STEVE KROFT: I mean you make it pretty clear if someone breaks the pledge you're going to do everything you can to get rid of them.
GROVER NORQUIST: To educate the voters that they raise taxes. And again, we educate people--
STEVE KROFT (overlapping): To get rid of them.
GROVER NORQUIST: --to encourage them to go into another line of work, like shoplifting or bank robbing where they have to do their own stealing.
STEVE KROFT: You got them by the shorthairs.
GROVER NORQUIST: The voters do, yeah.
BOB SCHIEFFER: So there you are. Now you did actually signed that pledge, the Grover Norquist pledge.
SENATOR PAT TOOMEY: Mm-Hm.
BOB SCHIEFFER: But you were willing to go ahead and put this plan out on the table. I think he said that if your plan was actually enacted, it would be poison.
SENATOR PAT TOOMEY: Well, let-- let's look. This is an indication of how far Republicans were willing to go to try to find a solution here. First of all, I don't think we have a tax revenue problem in Washington. We have a spending problem. As recently as 2007 with the current tax rate, we had a budget deficit that was tiny 1.2 percent of GDP. But if we just both went into our respective foxholes and weren't willing to consider the other side, we were surely not going to get an agreement. So we asked ourselves is there anyway we could find of putting some revenue on the table because the Democrats are absolutely adamantly insisting on this and do it in a way that wouldn't be harmful to the economy. So consider this. We have an irrational counterproductive tax code that's unfair and hinders economic growth. And we have in thirteen months the biggest tax increase in American history. So what we suggested was if we could reform the tax code, simplify it, lower rates, get rid of some of the loopholes and write-offs and the special interest treatments, avoid this gigantic tax increase that's coming, we shouldn't have to increase revenue to do that because it's good pro-growth and pro-jobs policy. But we'd be willing to. If that was the price it would take to get Democrats to agree to the strong economic growth program and some reforms that are really driving this problem. Reforms are the big entitlement programs. It was a-- it was a reach for us to put that on the table. Grover Norquist was very critical of me personally and-- and this idea as--
BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): But you actually went against him.
SENATOR PAT TOOMEY: That's-- yeah. You know, my-- I-- I think what I've done is consistent with the commitment I made to my constituents because it would have gotten us that pro-growth tax reform and avoided a huge tax increase. But not everybody sees it that way. And I've taken a lot of arrows for this of my-- as my colleagues have.
BOB SCHIEFFER: So what happens now? Let's say the committee fails. Nothing happens. These--
SENATOR PAT TOOMEY: Yeah.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --automatic cuts go into effect at the end of next year. Do you think Congress will actually let that happen or will they change the law before we get to this?
SENATOR PAT TOOMEY: Here's the silver lining in what is going to be a huge disappointment for me if we don't have a-- a real success here, the silver lining is that we're going to get the spending cuts anyway. That was designed into the bill that created the committee in the first place that raised the debt ceiling. The 1.2 trillion dollars in spending cuts, however, I think need to be reconfigured. They're done in a way that would be very harmful to our nation's defense, our won Defense Secretary Leon Penetta has said that they would hollow out our military. So I think it's very important that we change the configuration but that we not abandon the spending cuts because we need them.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. Senator, thank you so much for being with us.
SENATOR PAT TOOMEY: Thanks for having me, Bob.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And We'll be back in one minute and we'll talk with West Virginia's Democratic Senator Joe Manchin. He has his own ideas about all of this in a minute.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
BOB SCHIEFFER: And we're back now with West Virginia's Democratic Senator Joe Manchin, and this is your first Sunday show appearance, Senator. Thank you--
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN (D-West Virginia): Thank you for having me, Bob.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --thank you for being here. So what's your take on what's happening here? It looks like this-- this whole thing is-- is going to just fall right on its face if they're unable to come together and make some kind of a deal.
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Bob, failure cannot be-- cannot be accepted. We can't fail. We can't allow anybody to fail. I-- I don't want to be a part of a generation that turned over the keys to the next generation with the country in worst shape. That's never happened before. And I-- I'm not going to standstill for that. And I said I'll do everything I can. We've talked about-- you know, we have almost a hundred and forty members of Congress that have stood tall and we encouraged to go big. We're supporting the group of twelve. If they can't get to a deal, then they're going to have to step aside and hopefully there will be enough of us stepping forward to basically reintroduce the Bowles-Simpson plan and that's really the one that we think has put this country back in our fiscal house in order, puts us back in shape.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, what do you think what impact is it going to have if this com-- committee is unable to come to any kind of agreement? Do we run the risk of our financial--
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN (overlapping): No.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --securities being downgraded again?
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Sure you run-- you run that risk and that's why I say, well, failure is not-- not accepted. And we cannot accept failure. And with that being said we've got to move quick. We have a plan that's been tested. It's been bipartisan from its-- inception. It stayed bipartisan and it grew. The gang of six morphed out of that. Hundred and forty of us now are standing are as tall as we can. We want them to go-- be bold and go big. So that being said just think what would happen if we step forward, if they don't come to an agreement, we step forward as a group and we're saying we're going to put this on the table, going to vote for it. We need leadership. We need leadership from the White House to both the House and the Senate stepping forward and embracing this plan.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, is-- is President Obama doing enough on this?
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Well, if it doesn't work, then no one has done enough on it.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Uh-Huh.
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: And he's the leader of-- of-- of this great country and we want him to step forward.
BOB SCHIEFFER: What do you want him to do?
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: And let me just tell you in West Virginia what I did when I was governor. We had financial challenges but you had to step forward and you have to put your politics aside. It can't be about are you a good Democrat or good Republican. We needed to be a good West Virginian. And now we need to be a good American. It's-- it's about our country. So we can't worry about the next election. It should be the next generation. And everything we do here is worried about the next-- election. How it's going to affect them? Who would help? Who can they blame? This is not the blame game. And you never fixed a thing by blaming people. So, yes, we want to see the President take the leadership. We want to see members of Congress in leadership take that position that they-- they have been asked to do.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me tell you what some Republicans say. They say the President has stood back because in his secret heart of hearts he really wants this to fail, so he can bash the Republicans for it--
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN (overlapping): I-- I don't believe that.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --to get re-elected.
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: I don't believe that anybody that's serving the public today, I don't believe any of my ninety-nine colleagues and anybody in-- in the four hundred and thirty-five members of Congress, the President or anybody wants us to fail. Again, how would you want to be associated as a generation that failed America?
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, would you want him to come down and campaign for you in the next election, President Obama?
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Well, this is not a team sport. This is not a team sport. And basically I have been able to say what I thought we should do in West Virginia, and we did it. Our little state has six years of record surpluses. We've paid down our debt. We've got a good rainy day account, three years of-- of increased credit ratings. We've done very, very well. And the people respond to that. We want our President, no matter who your President is, you want him to succeed. And we hope there's a year left. Let's hope that happens.
BOB SCHIEFFER: What do you think of Congress right now?
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: It's-- I'm-- I'm-- I'm frustrated. I'm very frustrated. They said there was nine percent was our-- our approval rating is nine percent, you and I talked briefly I said we're still trying to find the nine percent thing. We're doing a good job.
BOB SCHIEFFER: You-- you haven't found that nine percent?
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: I haven't found them yet, no. I'm ashamed. I have to go back and apologize for what we're doing. This is not the way we ran our state in West Virginia. We didn't get the successes in West Virginia by playing politics. You know, we were good West Virginians. We love our state. We have a great state with great working people and people that are really compassionate.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Would you be willing to raise taxes if that's what it takes to get our financial footing?
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: You don't need to raise the taxes. The Bowles-Simpson laid out basically with the tax reform, there is revenue. They're having a hard time figuring out how do you spend the revenue. If we just said that we have a debt problem and we have an infrastructure problem, any new revenue will only go to debt reduction and infrastructure spending: bridges, roads, things of that sort. We're spending billions and trillions overseas in Afghanistan and Iraq. And I've said let's rebuild America, bring that home. You build us a bridge in West Virginia, help us build a school, we won't blow it up and we won't burn it down. We'll be very appreciative.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. Senator, it's pleasure to have you--
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN (overlapping): Thank you, Bob.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --in your first Sunday Morning appearance.
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN (overlapping): I appreciate it.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I hope we'll see you again.
SENATOR JOE MANCHIN: Thank you, sir.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I'll be back in a moment with some final thoughts on all of this.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
BOB SCHIEFFER: Finally today to say that Congress is unpopular is about as surprising as saying the sun rises in the East. But we tip our hat to freshman Senator Michael Bennett of Colorado for doing the research that shows just how far Congress has fallen and for pointing out that despite the excuse offered by some, this is not the way it has always been. Ten years ago, as many as sixty-five percent of Americans actually liked their elected officials. But as Congress has gotten more and more dysfunctional, its popularity has fallen dramatically to today's all-time low--a nine-percent approval rating. Even the hated IRS has an approval rating four times that; at the height of the oil spill, the BP oil company at sixteen percent had a higher approval rating than Congress; so does Paris Hilton who scores fifteen percent. Mind you, these findings came before 60 MINUTES aired the story a week ago, revealing that Congress has given its members the right to use inside information not available to the public to buy and sell stocks and bonds. Until now, Congress's response has been to ignore the criticism and concentrate on excuses not to make the hard decisions on raising revenues and overhauling entitlement programs. But when I look at these numbers, I'm not sure how much longer that's going to work for them. And you know what, I hope it doesn't. Back in a minute.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, thank you for watching FACE THE NATION. Be sure to join us next week for our annual Thanksgiving weekend books and authors show. We'll be talking to Kathryn Stockett, the author of The Help; Michael Lewis who wrote Boomerang; Steve Jobs' biographer Walter Isaacson; and Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice whose new memoir is No Higher Honor.
We'll see you then. Have a happy Thanksgiving.
ANNOUNCER: Was produced by CBS News which is solely responsible for the selection of today's guests and topics. It originated in Washington, DC.