"Face the Nation" transcript: November 13, 2011
Below is a rush transcript of "Face the Nation" on 13, 2011, hosted by CBS News chief Washington correspondent Bob Schieffer. The guests are Republican presidential candidate Jon Huntsman, Republican Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour, Democratic Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, and a political panel with former Clinton press secretary Dee Dee Myers, columnist Kathleen Parker, Major Garrett of the National Journal and CBS News Political Analyst John Dickerson..
BOB SCHIEFFER: Today on FACE THE NATION, what a trip, from late night comedy to foreign policy in just one week. The week ended on a serious but controversial note at last night's CBS News/National Journal debate.
MICHELE BACHMANN: If I were President, I would be willing to use water boarding.
RICK PERRY: This is war. That's what happens in war.
MITT ROMNEY: We will not allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon.
BOB SCHIEFFER: But that came after a week that ran the gamut from Herman Cain fighting off sexual harassment charges to Rick Perry forgetting his own plan to reduce the size of government.
RICK PERRY: The third agency of government I would-- I would do away with-- education, the--- commerce and let's see I can't-- the third one I can't. Sorry. Oops.
BOB SCHIEFFER: That was Christmas in November for the comics.
JON STEWART: Oops. That is not the four-letter word I would have gone with.
BOB SCHIEFFER: But last night Perry got serious.
RICK PERRY: The foreign aid budget in my administration for every country is going to start at zero dollars. Zero dollars. And then we will have a conversation.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Even Israel, Democrats are asking? So, who's up and who's down now?
NEWT GINGRICH: It is a wide open race.
BOB SCHIEFFER: We'll get analysis on all of it from Mississippi's Republican Governor Haley Barbour, to South Carolina's Republican Senator Lindsey Graham and Maryland's Democratic Governor Martin O'Malley, plus Republican candidate, Jon Huntsman. On our round table, conservative columnist Kathleen Parker, Bill Clinton's press secretary Dee Dee Myers, National Journal's Major Garrett, one of last night's moderators, and CBS News political director John Dickerson. Another campaign week for the record books. And it's all ahead on FACE THE NATION.
ANNOUNCER: From CBS News in Washington, FACE THE NATION with Bob Schieffer.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And good morning again. Well, last night's debate in South Carolina was all about foreign policy. The things that got most of the attention--what to do about Iran's nuclear capability and also who should we give foreign aid to. As we just saw Rick Perry got a lot of attention when he talked about zeroing out of foreign aid to everyone. And at some point, people began to ask, including Israel? Well, here is what he said.
RICK PERRY: Every country would start at zero.
(Crowd applauding)
RICK PERRY: Obviously, Israel is a special ally. And my bet is that we would be funding them at-- at some substantial level. But it makes sense for everyone to come in at zero and make your case.
BOB SCHIEFFER: So, Governor Haley Barbour down there in Mississippi, you've been in politics for a long time. And you well know when you start talking about cutting aid to Israel, it's sort of like talking about cutting people's Social Security. It's one of those third rails of American politics. Did Rick Perry set himself up for a new controversy here with these remarks last night?
GOVERNOR HALEY BARBOUR (R-Mississippi): Well, if I heard him right, he said we're going to have what Jimmy Carter calls zero-base budgeting and everybody will have to justify every year what they get. I don't think he-- he talked about the special relationship we have with Israel. And I don't think there's any way in the world that a Republican President or a Republican Congress would have a zero balance for Israel at the end of the day. But the idea of zero-base budgeting, starting every account out at zero is not new or partisan and a lot of people think it's a good idea.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Governor O'Malley, you're a Democrat. And I must say after those comments last night, boy, the Twitter lines and all the internet lines began to light up--what's he talking about? What's your take on that?
GOVERNOR MARTIN O'MALLEY (D-Maryland/Chairman, Democratic Governors Assn.): Well, I-- I think what's-- what's happened in the course of these Republican presidential debates is a lot of sort of erratic statements, a lot of behavior that is not really in keeping with some of the longer traditions of the party of Lincoln. So you see a real pandering to extremists. You see a pandering to the Tea Party extremes of the Republican Party. And so this is another one in a long series of things that don't really add up to a lot of practical sense.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Lindsey Graham, I want you to listen to this because something else that got a lot of attention last night was Iran, and what to do about its nuclear capability. And we saw Mitt Romney who is one of the Republican front-runners say, "If push came to shove and nothing else worked, we'd have to take military action against Iran." Listen to what he said here.
MITT ROMNEY: And if all else fails, if after all of the work we've done, there's nothing else we can do besides mil-- take military action, then of course you take military action. It is unacceptable for Iran to have a nuclear weapon.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Okay, Senator Graham, does that mean that we might get in a war with-- with Iran over whether it is-- that would be required to take out their nuclear capability? Would you be for that?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-South Carolina): Totally. Absolutely without any doubt, the Iranians if they develop a nuclear weapon, Bob, the whole region is going to want a nuclear weapon, then you march down the road of armageddon. You open Pandora's Box if you attack Iran. If they get a nuclear weapon, you empty Pandora's Box. That's the world we live in. So I support the idea of a military option at the last resort. But now their capability is so redundant, you'd have to do more than go after the nuclear program. You have to neuter this regime, destroy the air force, sink their navy, go after the revolutionary guard and try to get to people in the country to overthrow the regime. We need a regime change. If they get a nuclear weapon, the world is going to go into darkness.
BOB SCHIEFFER: You know, one of the things that the people have been asking about all week is, did Rick Perry sort of end his chances to get the nomination with some of the stumbles he made when he couldn't remember some of the things that he himself had advocated to reduce the size of government? I want to-- I want to get your all's take on this. That came up last night when Scott Pelley of CBS News, one of the moderators, asked him a question.
SCOTT PELLEY (CBS News Republican Debate): If you eliminate the Department of Energy--
RICK PERRY (CBS News Republican Debate): Glad you remembered it.
SCOTT PELLEY: I've had some time to think about it, sir.
RICK PERRY: Me too.
(Crowd cheering and applauding)
BOB SCHIEFFER: So he got a big round of applause. Governor Barbour, is Rick Perry back in the race now or-- or what's the deal here?
GOVERNOR HALEY BARBOUR: We'll see. I mean, he's a-- he obviously is right to be self-deprecating about it, to make fun of himself for making a mistake. Americans appreciate that, that you can admit you're wrong and--- and-- make-- make light of yourself. Well, how he comes back remains to be seen. You know, Bob, we do have the-- the habit this election year in the Republican side for thinking that whatever happened in the last seven days means we know what's going to happen in the next seven weeks, that it will show us that path. That hasn't been the case. I don't expect it to be the case. And so we'll just have to see if Rick Perry's strategy now-- some people are saying he's going to focus totally on Iowa. If he does, you know, does he get it back going there? He's-- he's-- he's a guy with a really good record as governor, who has stumbled. We'll see.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Gov-- Senator Graham, what-- what's your-- what's your take-away here just on Rick Perry and where he is now?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: He did better last night. I think it was a reassuring debate. I thought he was very good on foreign policy. Time and money. He's got time and he's got money. And if you've got time and money, anything can happen in politics. He's got a good record to sell being a Texas governor. He needs more good debates. But Newt was gone just a couple of months ago. So I've been with McCain where he was out, sixth in a fifth person race. And you never know what's going to happen. He's got time and money and talent. So I think he can come back.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Governor O'Malley, I suppose you have some thoughts on what you hope happens here. What-- what is your take-away from these debates so far from the Democratic side?
GOVERNOR MARTIN O'MALLEY: Well, I thought one of the more jarring things, I mean for all of the humor and the self-deprecating back and forth that you just saw on that clip. What was really disturbing is how little serious thought many of these Republican candidates who hold themselves out as the commander-in-chief that would be responsible for managing this big, complex organization, how little thought they've given to what it is they would actually do. That's what I took away from the debate so far. There's been no new ideas about job creation, no new ideas about growing our middle class, no new ideas about reinvesting in this great idea of America. And until that happens, you're going to see a very fluid field over there. And that's why you see the rise of people like Herman Cain as a protest vote because no one on their side yet is offering any new ideas or real solutions.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I have to say that on one point that Governor O'Malley makes here, nobody seems to be creating much excitement, including Mitt Romney, who seems to be sort of stuck just below twenty percent in the polls. Governor Barbour, what do you think? Who's up, who's down right now? And-- and where does that race go from here?
GOVERNOR HALEY BARBOUR: Well, Bob, as I've told you before, this reminds me of a lot of past Democratic presidential contests like Jimmy Carter in '76, Bill Clinton in '92, where there is not really a front-runner. Mitt Romney is the best known of our candidates. He's not a true front-runner. And what we see people doing more than I've ever seen in my life, is instead of saying which one agrees with me most, which one do I like the most, they're saying, which one's got the best chance to beat Obama. That's what matters to me. It looks like a lot of--
BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): Well, who-- who do you think has the best chance?
GOVERNOR HALEY BARBOUR: --voters are going to set Romney-- I've got to say, it looks like a lot of people kind of set Romney to the side and say I know a lot about him. I want to learn some more about these others. And that's why we're kind of going through Cinderella trying on the slipper. And it looks like maybe Newt's time's next and we'll go along. Then after we've gone through that cycle, people will seriously focus on, is it really Romney who is the most electable or is there somebody else that's come out that I think has the best chance to beat Obama?
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right.
GOVERNOR HALEY BARBOUR: If this election is about President Obama's policies and his record, whoever we nominate will get elected.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. I want to ask you, Senator Graham, in about thirty seconds, where--- what's your take-away from this? Where do you think this goes?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Last night Ronald Reagan would have loved this debate. Six months ago, I was really worried that our party was drifting. Last night was a hawkish debate that talked about listening to commanders and not basing decisions in Iraq and Afghanistan, on polls. This President has rejected solid military commander advice to help his own re-election. I think we're going to win because the policies that he enacted-- President Obama enacted in his first two years have damned this economy for now and in the future. So we need a solid person on the economy, someone who will say I will listen to the generals, not make poll-driven decisions.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: He's going to be a one-term President if we get a solid nominee.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. I want to thank all of you. We are trying to have at least one candidate on every week. And Jon Huntsman joins us today from Spartanburg.
Governor, both Newt Gingrich and Rick Perry said last night that when it comes to foreign aid, that every country should start out at zero and we decide from there who gets foreign aid. People immediately began to ask, does that also include Israel? Governor Perry said at one point yes, that he did. His people later kind of walked that back a little bit. But what do you make of that?
JON HUNTSMAN (Republican Presidential Candidate/Former Utah Governor): Well, it's called sound bite campaigning. These are easy sound bites say get an applause line. The fact of the matter is we're broke as a country and we're going to have to look very, very carefully at foreign aid. But we also have to look at it through the prism and through the analysis of what kind of return we get on our national interests. So when you've got aid money that goes to Israel that's balanced to somewhat with the Palestinian authority, that's important for the ongoing peace process. When you have aid money that is targeted toward expanding rule of law, for example, in parts of the world that don't have it, enhancing human rights. There are certain areas that I would argue are in America's interests and if they're in America's interest we get some return on that invested dollar. And I think we have-- you know, it's fair enough to say we have got to start with a zero based budget approach but let's also be smart enough to say that we do as people get a certain return through foreign aid. We have to carefully identify what that return is, explain it to the American people. But to say we're just going to wish it all away I think is a political sound bite.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Should we-- should we give aid to Pakistan in light of what's been happening?
JON HUNTSMAN: That's terribly problematic. We have a-- we have nothing more than a-- a relationship with Pakistan that is transactional. It's a very challenging and difficult situation. They have nuclear weapons. The hundred and sixty million people with the youngest demographic in South Asia influenced by the Madrassa Movement increasingly being radicalized, they very well could be a-- a candidate for failed nation-- nationship. And I say because of their precarious state of-- of affairs, we've got to have an ongoing relationship with Pakistan that allows them to move in a direction of stability. Nuclear weapons, the fragility of-- of-- of the domestic situation, something that would tie aid money-- I'm not in favor of four billion dollars particularly the money that winds up in the hip pockets of the General Kayani and his crowd. But something that is tied to reform, something that is tied to stability, something that is tied to steps toward expanding the marketplace because in the end in Pakistan the only way they're going to be able to save themselves is by providing more in the way of economic opportunity to their people.
BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): All right. Let me-- let me ask you a political question here before I let you go. Despite all this exposure, despite all these debates, seven out of ten people that we've surveyed say they still are undecided about who they think the Republican nominee ought to be. The people who are leading now can't even get twenty percent of the voters. Why do you think that is a governor, is it just a very weak field?
JON HUNTSMAN: No, I think it's not unusual at this point in the campaign. First of all we're early. We forget, you know, for the political junkies they're all saying how come this thing hasn't solidified? But I think for the most part people are just beginning to tune in. And that's why I like our chances. People say you're going to get lower in polls, you know, what gives in and how're you going to handle this? I say, you know, toward the end of December, toward early January even in a state like New Hampshire, people don't coale-- begin coalescing around the candidates until about ten days before the vote. So you're going to see continuing positioning on the part of the candidates for the next several weeks and then you're going to see the people. When they have to stair down the ballot box, Bob, they ask a very important question and that is, who can I vote for? Who can actually do the work of the presidency of the United States of America? Who has the vision? Who has the track record and temperament?
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right, well thank you so much, governor.
JON HUNTSMAN: Thank you, Bob.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And when we come back, our distinguished panel of political analysts and reporters in a minute.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
BOB SCHIEFFER: And we're back now with our panel. Kathleen Parker, of course, is the columnist for the Washington Post who writes kind of from the conservative side, I would say. Dee Dee Myers, President Clinton's press secretary, National Journal's Major Garrett who moderated the debate last night along with our own Scott Pelley. And our CBS News political director just named to that post yesterday John Dickerson. John, congratulations.
Kathleen, I want to start with you. Herman Cain was not much of a presence at this debate last night. But he had a very rough week going into it. And I must say his support among women does seem to have fallen somewhat. It was about twenty-eight percent support among women before. Now it's down to about fifteen percent. Do you think this is going to blow over for him or will he weather this storm?
KATHLEEN PARKER (Washington Post Columnist): I think he's counting on it blowing over. And he-- there's not, you know, there's a precedent for that. Americans have a very short attention span. He's hoping that if he just continues to blow reporters off and-- and focus on the things that he wants to talk about, essentially 999, shall I say. You know, that eventually people will just forget. And he's also playing kind of the victim card, you know. And I would-- he's-- he's suggesting that all of these people are out to get him. And that resonates with a certain part of the Republican Party. They're very happy to say, look, don't pick on our man. In fact, the more you pick on him, the more they're going to like Cain. And he's some sort of feeding on that.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Dee Dee Myers, you were President Clinton's press secretary when he went some-- through some serious allegations involving women. How do you see this playing out?
DEE DEE MYERS (Former White House Press Secretary/Contributing Editor, Vanity Fair)): I think that a lot of Cain's base has been men-- more men than women. I don't-- haven't seen a lot of numbers to support that but certainly that's my-- my reading of the situation. And I think that's one of the reasons that his support hasn't dropped more. But I think this is the kind of thing that starts to sow doubt about who Herman Cain is and whether he's really the best candidate to be the Re-- Republican nominee for President. You know, I think we'll start to see more scrutiny of him on other issues. Last night he looked uncomfortable talking about foreign policy. He didn't want to be there. This is not his strong suit. He gave answers that if the bar had been higher I think would have been more controversial. So he basically would defer all of the big decisions about foreign policy and military policy to his advisors or to the generals. He would be Commander-in-Chief. That's not a really very satisfying answer.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Major Garrett, you were one of the moderators last night.
MAJOR GARRETT: Yes.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I would just ask you, what do you take away from this? I mean, who's up and who's down now? And who helped themselves and who hurt themselves?
MAJOR GARRETT (National Journal): Well, I'll leave that to the American voters. What we tried to do last night was ask think questions not recite questions. We really wanted to try to force the candidates to think on their feet and adapt their present view of the world to circumstances they would actually confront as Commander-in-Chief. And I agree with Dee Dee that Herman Cain did not appear to me from where I sat to be comfortable with those questions or have ready answers for the complexities that he would con-- confront as Commander-in-Chief. The voters can draw their own conclusions about Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney. I thought we learned a lot last night about Iran, covert activity that Mitt Romney said was a good idea. So did Newt Gingrich, so did Rick Santorum. They don't want to get involved in Syria in a military forum. They would maybe help the opposition. Rick Perry said the communist Chinese government is going to fall on the ash heap of history. This whole thing about foreign aid-- I think a lot of things were gleaned from that debate last night. That was our intention. I think people for the next week or so are going to be chewing over a lot of different answers that came out last night.
BOB SCHIEFFER: If you had to sum it up, John, how would you sum up last night's debate?
JOHN DICKERSON: Well, it was-- it was hawkish. As Major mentioned there was the talk about Iran. Also you had water boarding come back again. Michele Bachmann, Herman Cain, Rick Perry said they were for it. They supported it. You also had an interesting split on Pakistan. You had Rick Perry saying I'm going to zero out foreign aid and then you had Rick Santorum-- Senator Santorum and Congresswoman Bachmann saying wait a minute, we have to keep giving foreign aid to a country like Pakistan because they have nukes. In terms of the politics, this is Newt Gingrich's moment. He was very forceful. In the CBS poll this week, he comes out on top when you asked who do you handle-- who could best handle a crisis; thirty-one percent of the people said that. When he was in this debate, he looked like a person who-- he put that forward to voters and that probably worked pretty well for him.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Kathleen, do you see Gingrich now being the alternative to Romney, various ones that have been put in that position and have risen and then fallen. Where-- where do you see Gingrich now?
KATHLEEN PARKER: Well, he's-- he's certainly the flavor of the week. And-- and Newt Gingrich does very, very well in debates. You know, he's not really much of a campaigner. In fact, he's been described as sort of a misanthrope. That would be sort of interesting wouldn't it to have a misanthrope President. But he does very well on the debate-- debate format. And he's-- he's rather refreshing I have to say because he'll just cut through all the-- all the garbage and say what's-- what's clear and succinct and-- and obviously true in many cases.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Dee Dee, you're a Democrat. Who do Democrats want to see win this?
DEE DEE MYERS: Well, the most unelectable candidate would be just fine, thank you. So, you know, I think people with the Democrats were pretty excited about Rick Pretty. I think the general consensus is he's too far right for most of the country. I think we'd be thrilled to have Newt Gingrich be the nominee. I think not only is he a misanthrope as Kathleen pointed out. But he's really mercurial, he's not particularly disciplined. He's an interesting thinker. But, you know, a good proportion of his ideas are kind of way out there. And he'd be fun to run against. So I think there's-- there's a wealth of opportunity in the Republican primary field for Democrats to have some fun. You know, probably the one that people think is most-- looks like the toughest candidate from this perspective is-- is Mitt Romney.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And the White House seems to be thinking that because they seem to put their attacks-- I'm we've run out of time.
DEE DEE MYERS: That's right.
BOB SCHIEFFER: But there we are. Thanks to all of you for being here. Back with some final thoughts in just a minute.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
BOB SCHIEFFER: Finally today, the fall of icons are the stories that always hit us the hardest. When our heroes let us down, it forces us to question our own judgment for elevating them in the first place. So it was when we learned that the legendary football coach Joe Paterno and a lot of other people above and below him at Penn State either looked the other way or, at worst, covered it up when they learned that one of Paterno's top assistants was a child molester. We said what that kid said to Shoeless Joe Jackson, one of the players accused of fixing the 1919 World Series, "Say it ain't so, Joe." Shoeless Joe was a barely literate man who claimed he was duped by gamblers, but it is hard to believe that anyone who had an inkling of what was going on at Penn State did not understand its significance. But they had bigger fish to fry, protecting a football program that brought millions of dollars and national attention to their school. Paterno was a great coach who now says his heart goes out to the young victims. But it's a little too late for that. As the Catholic Church learned when protecting the institution is put ahead of protecting those it is intended to serve, it is eventually the institution that is put at risk. That is unfortunate, but let us remember those, the institution forgot, the victims, children who may have been scarred for life. They deserve to know those who wronged them and those who knew about it are being brought to justice. And yes, that includes the icons.
Back in a minute.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
BOB SCHIEFFER: That's it for us today. We thank you for watching. And we'll see you here next week on FACE THE NATION.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ANNOUNCER: This broadcast was produced by CBS News which is solely responsible for the selection of today's guests and topics. It originated from Washington, DC.