Full transcript of "Face the Nation" on June 21, 2020
On this "Face the Nation" broadcast moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Chad Wolf, Acting Homeland Security Secretary
- Senator Mark Warner, D-Virginia
- Jide Zeitlin, Tapestry CEO
- Dr. Scott Gottlieb, Former FDA Commissioner
- Jamelle Bouie, New York Times Columnist
Click here to browse full transcripts of "Face the Nation."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington. And this week on FACE THE NATION, there are alarming new increases in the number of COVID cases around the world as President Trump struggles to get the country and his campaign back on track.
(Crowd shouting)
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's a scene we haven't witnessed in months, a large indoor gathering with thousands of supporters cheering President Trump, a campaign relaunch one Republican strategist said was much needed after a brutal few months. For the President, it was a way to get out of Washington and leave his troubles behind if only for a few hours. It's been a difficult week for Mister Trump. The Supreme Court ruled against his administration for attempting to stop a program protecting the children of undocumented immigrants from being deported. His former national security advisor John Bolton won a court case to allow a bombshell book to become public, it's a devastating look at a President trying to do just about anything to win reelection. Then the controversial firing of the federal prosecutor investigating Trump allies Rudy Giuliani and Michael Cohen. Most troubling that the number of new coronavirus cases in some states has spiked dramatically, but President Trump continues to downplay the virus.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP (Monday): So if we stopped testing right now, we'd have very few cases, if any.
(Wednesday): It's fading away. It's going to fade away.
(Saturday): I said to my people, slow the testing down, please. They test and they test.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is politics getting in the way of common sense? Restrictions in blue western states like California and Oregon have tightened in light of the increases, but many of the southern states that are Republican leaning have been slower to respond. We'll talk with a top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Mark Warner. Plus, acting Homeland Security Secretary Chad Wolf. We'll get an update on coronavirus from former FDA Commissioner Doctor Scott Gottlieb and talk with Jide Zeitlin, the CEO of Tapestry, a Fortune 500 company. Finally, we'll reflect on the Juneteenth anniversary, with New York Times opinion writer and CBS political analyst, Jamelle Bouie.
It's all just ahead on FACE THE NATION.
Good morning and welcome to FACE THE NATION. We've got a lot of news to get to today. We begin with CBS News' national correspondent Mark Strassmann in Atlanta.
(Begin VT)
(Crowd cheering)
MARK STRASSMANN (CBS News National Correspondent): In Trump-friendly Oklahoma, the President reportedly seethed, his first reelection rally in months and, yet, this Tulsa arena was perhaps one-third empty. He had crowed that a million people wanted tickets. Mister Trump talked about America's continuing corona crisis.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Testing is a double-edged sword. When you do testing to that extent, you're going to find more people, you're going to find more cases. So I said to my people, slow the testing down, please.
MARK STRASSMANN: He also characterized the pandemic with racist wordplay.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I can name Kung flu. I can name nineteen different versions of names.
MARK STRASSMANN: Local health officials had worried the rally could become a COVID super spreader, some Trump loyalists were willing to take the chance.
MAN #1: I am concerned about it especially with all of the spit maybe going up in the air as we cheer and stuff like that.
MARK STRASSMANN: Before the event began, six members of the Trump campaign staff tested positive. All rally-goers had their temperatures checked, everyone received a face mask, but wearing it was optional.
MAN #2: No intentions on wearing masks. We're-- we're healthy individuals.
MARK STRASSMANN: Inside, social distancing was ignored and as the President spoke, it appeared most of his audience was not wearing masks. That attitude alarms U.S. health officials. As America reopens, COVID-19's resurging, roughly thirty thousand more Americans tested positive over the last two days, close to the April peak. In twenty-one states, new COVID cases trend in a worrisome direction, up. Ten states this week broke seven-day averages for new cases. On Saturday Florida broke its daily record again. More than four thousand new cases. In an about-face, state health officials now urge Floridians to wear masks and avoid groups of more than fifty people. When New York Governor Andrew Cuomo said he might start quarantining arriving Floridians, Florida's governor fired right back at Cuomo.
RON DESANTIS: Just please do not quarantine any Floridians in the nursing homes in New York.
MARK STRASSMANN: In both Arizona and Florida, Major League Baseball closed all spring training facilities. At least a dozen players have tested positive. The Mets and the Yankees are heading home to train where it's safer in New York. Pro football took another hit. The NFL Players Association advised its members to stop practicing together. America is COVID weary. We are eager to get back to work, we want life to feel normal again, and it is making us sick.
(End VT)
MARK STRASSMANN: Here in Georgia, COVID setting the kind of records that no state wants. In per capita COVID deaths, America's top four counties are all here. Like much of America, in this phase of the virus, cities seem healthier. All four of those counties are rural. Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mark Strassmann in Atlanta. Thanks.
We want to go now to the acting Homeland Security Secretary Chad Wolf. He joins us from department headquarters here in Washington. Good morning to you.
CHAD WOLF (Acting Homeland Security Secretary/@DHS_Wolf): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: A lot to get to with you, but I want to ask you about something the President said twice. He said that National Security Adviser John Bolton "likes dropping bombs on people and killing them. Now he will have bombs dropped on him." If a private citizen said something like that, I-- I feel like there'd be some security concerns. What was the President trying to say? Is this a threat?
CHAD WOLF: Well, Margaret, I'm going to let the President speak for himself. I did not have the chance to work closely with Ambassador Bolton before I came into this position. So I'm going to let the White House speak for-- for themselves. But I think what the President-- the frustration that he has with Ambassador Bolton is we all serve at the pleasure of the President. And if you disagree with the President, then you have the ability to resign. And that didn't occur in this case. As you know, Ambassador Bolton was fired. And so I think what you see here is some frustration on an individual writing a book for profit. And so I think that's-- that's what I take from those comments. But, again, I would refer you back to the White House.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Bombs dropped on him. You don't take that as concerning?
CHAD WOLF: No. I think-- again, I think if you listen to the President in a variety of different remarks, a lot of some of his comments are taking from a humor standpoint, a joking standpoint.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm. I also want to ask about something else the President said last night. Are you aware of the President telling officials to slow down testing as it relates to coronavirus?
CHAD WOLF: No. Again, I heard those comments as well. I think that what you-- what you heard from the President was frustration, frustration in the sense of that we are testing, I believe we've tested over twenty-five million Americans. We've tested more than any other country in this world. Instead, the press and others, all they want to focus on is an increasing case count. And we know that that's going to occur when you test individuals more and more and more.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about something that falls directly under your portfolio, and that is the TSA. Homeland Security has been ordered to open an investigation in regard to a whistleblower's accusations that there wasn't uniform guidance given to those individuals who are conducting searches at airports. There wasn't training or procedures on protective equipment to deal with COVID. That poses a risk not just to those officers, but, obviously, to the public that interacts with them.
CHAD WOLF: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Specifically, no mandates for gloves to be changed, no thermometers for passenger temperature checks. Well, what's the status of the investigation?
CHAD WOLF: Well, as you indicated, it's an open investigation, so I'm not going to comment specifically. But what I can tell you is that from day one, we have provided transportation security officers, those TSA officers at checkpoints, screening individuals, all of the guidance, all of the standards and all of the PPE that they need to do their job. So we'll continue to work with the investigation, but I feel very confident in what we have provided the TSAs. But I will tell you that as-- over--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Does that concern you, though? Or is it safe to fly at current levels?
CHAD WOLF: Absolutely. Absolutely. It is safe to fly. I will tell you, though, over the course of three or four months, as this virus has continued to evolve and as the CDC's health strategies continued to evolve so has DHS operations. We have a number of front-line officers not only at airports, but on our borders, making sure that we are screening individuals as they come into this country. They can't social distance, as you indicated. And so they have to touch individuals. They have to make sure that individuals are resolved. But we'll continue to provide all of the PPE, all of the resources as we have since day one to all of our front-line officers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: This week as-- as you well know the Supreme Court issued it-- its ruling and rejected the administration's attempt to cancel the DACA program. You said that decision doesn't provide a lot of clarity for the seven hundred thousand or so--
CHAD WOLF: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --recipients on the program. Can you assure them that they will still get their work visas renewed, that they won't be forcibly deported from this country?
S
CHAD WOLF: Well, what I would tell you is that we know that the DACA program is unlawful. The Supreme Court even this week did not say that the program was lawful. And in fact, they said that the department has the ability to rescind the program. What they didn't like is the rationale in the way in which we propose to do that. And I-- I find that a little concerning because what we know is the Obama administration created this program out of thin air, did not provide notice and comment before the American public to comment on such a-- a monumental decision. Instead, the President and this administration has laid out a six-month phase-out program, been very upfront with the American people about how to do that. So we'll continue to take a look at that and-- and--
MARGARET BRENNAN: So what-- from- those work visas--
CHAD WOLF: --see how we go from day one.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --will continue to be renewed and there won't be forcible deportations. Is that what you're saying?
CHAD WOLF: Absolutely. We'll continue the program as we have over the past two years, continuing to renew those. But the President's been very clear about wanting to find a lasting solution for these individuals. He's also directed the department to take a look at the court opinion and take a look at our rationale, and we're doing that as well so that we can, again, wind down this program. I think it's important to-- to remind your viewers this is an unlawful program. And as the acting secretary of Homeland Security--
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's an incredibly popular program, including with Republicans.
CHAD WOLF: I don't-- I don't disagree that it's popular, but I think you have to-- you have to separate those two. Is it popular and is it lawful? And as acting secretary, I don't have the luxury of ignoring the law and running a program that's unlawful. And so what the President's been very clear about is asking Congress to find a solution for these individuals.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That means a path to citizenship, one would assume. Just to button up on something you referred to earlier when you talked about the increase in testing that is available to those who-- who may have COVID-19. I'm sure you know that there are spikes in actual hospitalizations, people actually getting sick, particularly in Arizona and in Te-- in Texas. It's not just increased testing.
CHAD WOLF: Absolutely. And, again, the White House Coronavirus Task Force is on top of all of these outbreaks, looking state by state, county by county. Whether it's Arizona, Texas, Florida, a number of these states that are having hot spots, that are having those upticks. So we're surging resources, medical individuals and the like, even individuals from the Department of Homeland Security. We're surging into those to-- areas to understand what is the cause of that outbreak and address that proactively.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you don't know yet what the cause of the outbreaks in all of those Sun Belt States is?
CHAD WOLF: They're all different. They're all for various different reasons. What we see is some of the outbreaks along the southwest border in Arizona, particular parts of Texas, we have about 1.5 U.S.-- U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents living in Mexico, coming back over for medical treatment. So there's a variety of different reasons on why you would have different outbreaks in different states. And, again, we have medical professionals, CDC has sent teams into these individual areas, the Department has as well. And we're continuing to address that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right. Mister Secretary, thank you for your time this morning.
CHAD WOLF: Okay. Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll be right back with a lot more FACE THE NATION. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: In Washington reporters have learned that a lot can happen on a Friday night when it comes to the Trump administration. This past Friday, Attorney General William Barr announced the resignation of Geoffrey Berman, the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. That office is investigating some of Mister Trump's allies, including Rudy Giuliani. Berman's response? He had no intention of resigning. Saturday, the attorney general went a step further, sending a letter to Berman saying I have asked the President to remove you as of today and he has done so. Berman then announced his departure effective immediately. President Trump had a different version of the firing.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We have a very capable attorney general, so that's really up to him, I am not involved.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We want to go now to White House correspondent Paula Reid. Paula, why was there this confusion and-- and why hasn't the attorney general explained why he did this?
PAULA REID (CBS News White House Correspondent/@PaulaReidCBS): Well, as you heard there, the President is saying he does not get involved in matters related to the Justice Department but his own attorney general, Margaret, has said that the President's prolific tweets on matters related to the Justice Department make it nearly impossible for him to do his job, the special counsel laid out eleven possible instances where the President has tried to obstruct justice by interfering at the Justice Department, which is why many people are seeing what happened Friday through a lens of skepticism and raising questions about whether the President is trying to protect himself or his allies like Rudy Giuliani, but Justice Department official says there was no connection between this firing and any ongoing investigation. But, so far, Margaret, the attorney general has not been able to explain why he gave that statement Friday saying Berman was stepping down when Berman said, wait not so fast.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, and it-- it's also unusual because the southern district handles so many sensitive cases, including the one you just mentioned with the President's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani. Last night the President himself said he didn't know that.
PAULA REID: That was very--
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP (Fox News): I mean, not investigating me, and I don't even know about Giuliani being investigated, you are telling me that. I read that over the last day, but I don't know about Rudy Giuliani being investigated, investigated for what? He was the greatest crime fighter of our generation, of our time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But Speaker Pelosi released a statement saying that the investigation into Rudy Giuliani was connected here. What do we know?
PAULA REID: Well, CBS News has learned that Giuliani has been under investigation by that office, for possible foreign lobbying violations related to his work in Ukraine. And last night, Margaret, Giuliani told a reporter that he believes these two events could be connected which are not helping the optics here. And one thing that's really significant is the Southern District of New York has always prided itself on being independent from Washington. And in his letter to Berman, the attorney general, specifically, said that now the internal watchdog, the inspector general at the Justice Department will now have an oversight role of that office, suggesting they are clearly no longer independent.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There was other-- another key ruling from a court that said former national security advisor John Bolton can actually go ahead with the publication and sale of his book about his time at the Trump White House. But the judge didn't actually make it a clear win. The President is saying, it's actually in his favor.
PAULA REID: Well, as you noted, the judge said that Bolton's book can be released but he also accused Bolton of possibly damaging national security and exposing himself to civil and potentially criminal liability. Now, in this decision, the judge noted one of the reasons that he was going to allow the book to be published is that many reporters, including CBS News, had the book here at the White House while they were arguing about this. But the judge signaled that it's possible that Bolton may need to forfeit any profits. And, historically, judges have been pretty sympathetic to the government if they can establish that someone did not complete a review process, they may say, hey, you can release your book but you got to hand over the cash.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Paula Reid at the White House, thank you.
We turn now to the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Virginia Democratic Senator Mark Warner. Good morning to you.
SENATOR MARK WARNER (D-Virginia/@MarkWarner/Senate Intelligence Committee Vice Chairman): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you know why U.S. Attorney Berman was fired?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: I have absolutely no idea. Although we do see this pattern where the administration uses Friday night to announce bad news. But this is one more example of why I think Bill Barr has repeatedly demonstrated that he's more interested in being Donald Trump's personal lawyer than he is in being the attorney for the United States of America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, there were a number of investigations that the Southern District was-- was, and I suppose are-- are still pursuing. And in his statements, Berman referred to the importance of continuing some of those investigations. Do you have any sense what he was referring to?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: No, it has been speculated that the U.S. Attorney Mister Berman was investigating Donald Trump's personal lawyer, Mister Giuliani. I think a number of us have been worried that Mister Giuliani may have been knowingly or unknowingly manipulated by individuals coming out of Ukraine that may be manipulated by Russia. So there seems to be a pattern from this administration that the President and his henchman, Mister Barr, are willing to get rid of anyone that's investigating people that get close to Donald Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, CBS has reported that Rudy Giuliani is under investigation. But do you have any reason to believe that the deputy in the Southern District office, her name is Audrey Strauss, is not capable or wouldn't pursue those investigations?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: No, it-- it appears that she's a career professional, and I think it was appropriate for Mister Berman to push back against what I think was totally inappropriate firing by first Barr and then it appeared Donald Trump himself. But we've seen this pattern. I've seen it in the intelligence community where, literally, six Trump-appointed intelligence officials have either been pushed out or fired because they tried to do their job of speaking truth to power. It appears again that Mister Berman, who was a Trump appointee, was trying to do his job, follow the law, and that cost him his job. I-- I do believe his-- his deputy, Miss Strauss, though, should be able to do the job professionally and appropriately.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah. You've been raising concerns about politicized intelligence. And I want to ask you what justification the Department of Justice has given you as to why the investigation your committee conducted into Russian election meddling in 2016 has not been released publicly, given that we are five months out from the election and this is one of the most key portions of your investigation.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Well, our last volume, Volume V, close to a thousand pages, and I would point out again, we're the only bipartisan investigation that has been looking into this subject. We've been virtually unanimous in all our first four reports. Our Volume V, a thousand pages, has been submitted to the director of National Intelligence for final clearance review.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So the director of National Intelligence had publicly said he would look into having this released. But you believe John Ratcliffe, the director, is the one holding it up now?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Listen, I think it is an appropriate review process. We simply submitted it literally within the last thirty days. So I'll give the ODNI a little more time. But my hope and expectation is that this volume will be released so that Americans can make their judgment. And I want it released before the August recess.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about John Bolton, the former national security adviser to President Trump. We did see a federal judge rule that his book can be sold. But the judge also said he gambled with the national security of the United States by publishing information before the classification review had been completed. So that-- that's going to potentially give him some legal challenges. But from what you hear from the intel community, from the CIA director, is there a lot of concern about what Bolton disclosed?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Listen, I think John Bolton, if he wanted to tell his story and he has such damning accusations against Donald Trump, not only vis-a-vis Ukraine, but in terms of the President's activities with Erdogan, the Turkish leader, with the President's activities and allegations about his conversations with President Xi of China. If John Bolton had really wanted to get this information out for reasons other than his own personal profit, he should have come and testified before the House or the Senate—
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you going to ask him to testify now--
SENATOR MARK WARNER: --much earlier in the year.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --with your Republican colleagues?
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Listen, I'm not sure that his credibility at this moment is all that high. But I think the bigger argument here, if these allegations and accusations, which are extraordinarily damning, are true, I would think my Republican colleagues would want to have that-- get him on, get him under oath as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So that's maybe it sounds like. On the intell-
SENATOR MARK WARNER: That's a maybe at this point. But, again, I don't think-- I think John Bolton managed to not only-- he managed to unite all of Washington. The Democrats were frustrated.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: He was not--
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you--
SENATOR MARK WARNER: --willing to testify. The Republicans are, obviously, concerned about the book. But, you know, at the end of the day--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you didn't-- you didn't answer the first question, though.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: --we need to figure out whether these allegations are true or not.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You-- you just didn't-- just to button up, you didn't answer the question of how concerned the intelligence community truly is about what was revealed.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Again, I'm not going to speak to what-- I think the intelligence community is-- is always concerned about leaking of classified information. I think there is a legitimate question here whether what Bolton is laying out, though, is this classified because of Donald Trump is afraid of the substance or because of legitimate intelligence reasons.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Understood. Senator, thank you for your time.
SENATOR MARK WARNER: Thank you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: In two weeks we will talk to former national security advisor John Bolton about his bombshell book, The Room Where It Happened. That's Sunday, July the fifth.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with former FDA Commissioner Doctor Scott Gottlieb and a whole lot more FACE THE NATION. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION. The total number of COVID-19 cases worldwide now stands at 8.8 million, and the World Health Organization warns that the pandemic is accelerating, particularly, in the Americas. CBS News senior foreign correspondent Elizabeth Palmer reports from London. Liz.
ELIZABETH PALMER (CBS News Senior Foreign Correspondent/@elizapalmer): Margaret, here in Europe, things have really turned around, coronavirus, at least for now, is in retreat.
(Begin VT)
ELIZABETH PALMER: Borders are even reopening so people can travel to vacation spots. But in the developing world, the pandemic is raging. Brazil is in full-blown crisis. As in the U.S., COVID-19 here has become political. On Copacabana Beach a pandemic denier knocked down crosses at a symbolic memorial.
(Man speaking foreign language)
ELIZABETH PALMER: But arguing can't hide the facts. Fifty thousand new cases a day here, and the coronavirus peak is still weeks away. Nearby, in Peru, they are selling oxygen in the streets. The infection rate has come down a little but left many families treating COVID victims at home because hospitals are too full or too expensive. This is still a dangerous time warned WHO Director General Tedros Ghebreyesus.
TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS: Many people are understandably fed up with being at home. Countries are understandably eager to open up their societies and economies, but the virus is still spreading fast.
ELIZABETH PALMER: In India's capital, Delhi, they learned that the hard way. Shops, offices and markets reopened two weeks ago and the virus took off. Now with hospitals overwhelmed the city is converting train carriages into makeshift COVID wards. They'll offer a bed of sorts and oxygen, but not a chance of social distancing. Russia too lifted its strict lockdown and even staged rehearsals for the traditional Victory Day parade. Lots of hardware, very few masks. The Kremlin insists in spite of widespread skepticism that the virus is under control, but then announced that anyone meeting President Putin will first have to go through one of these disinfection machines. And in St. Petersburg, a makeshift memorial put faces to the names of the almost five hundred doctors and nurses who have died fighting coronavirus.
(End VT)
ELIZABETH PALMER: Here in the U.K., the government is hinting that it's about to relax the social distancing rule from six feet to three. The hope is it will help hotels and restaurants, if not thrive, at least survive. Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Liz Palmer, thank you.
We turn now to former FDA Commissioner Doctor Scott Gottlieb, who is in Westport, Connecticut, this morning. Good morning to you, Doctor Gottlieb.
SCOTT GOTTLIEB, MD (Former FDA Commissioner/@ScottGottliebMD): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We heard that the number of COVID-19 cases has exceeded thirty thousand a day for the first time in about seven weeks. What is happening?
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Well, we're seeing a resurgence in the South and in the Southeast. They never really got rid of their epidemics. Now, we're seeing significant outbreaks on top of a background rate of spread that was quite high. As they reopened, that spread has continued to increase. And so, you know, a challenge that was facing some regions of the country now is facing every region in the country. And the-- the worry is that they're going to tip over into exponential growth coming this week because the cases are building quite quickly in Texas, Florida, Alabama, South Carolina, North Carolina, Arizona. And the challenge with exponential growth is everything looks okay until suddenly it doesn't. And so this is something that has to be a concern of everyone that's been watching this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When you say exponential growth, are you saying that hospitals are about to get overwhelmed in places like Arizona and Texas?
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: That's the concern. So if you look at places like Arizona, the hospitals now are getting pressed. Midweek, there was a report out of Arizona that about forty percent of the hospital beds were filled with COVID patients. Texas and Florida still reporting a lot of capacity even though Florida doesn't report the total hospitalizations for COVID patients. But these things can mount very quickly, as we saw in New York. You're always when-- when the epidemic is expanding, it's always worse than what you're measuring. And so there are a lot more cases in these states that are going to get turned over this coming week. Given the rate of growth that we've seen, we know that there's community spread now underway in states like Florida, Texas, California, for that matter, too, and Arizona. Those are big states that have a lot of cases they've been building. And so this is going to be hard to get under control. We're not going to want to shut down businesses again. We're not going to want to shut down the economy. So, there's not many tools we can reach for. We can do case-based interventions, the tracking and the tracing of sick people to get people isolated. We can go towards universal masking, something that's been controversial in some of these states, but there's not much-- much else you can do. And so there's no quick intervention that's going to bring this to an end.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In Arizona, it was just this week that the governor gave mayors the power to make masks mandatory. They're not doing that in Florida. They're not doing that in Texas. Is that a-- a mistake?
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Well, I think they're going to have to. I think it's a mistake they're not doing. Now they're losing precious time. I think they're going to have to. The masking has become controversial. It shouldn't be. It's a simple intervention. It's a collective action we can all take to help protect our fellow citizens, and also protect ourselves and try to reopen the economy safely. I think some people see it as a sort of infringement on their liberty or as a way as-- to cast some scorn on a public health establishment that's come in for some questions because people blame the public health establishment for the shutdowns. They blame the public health establishment for some conflicting guidance. I think in other quarters it's been portrayed as something that, you know, Trump supporters don't want to wear masks. It's neither of those things. It's something that we can do collectively to try to reduce the spread. It's really all we have and it's not-- it's not a very robust tool at that. But it's a tool that we have and it's a tool that's been demonstrated to have an impact if everyone does it or if most people do it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, health officials did give conflicting messages on wearing masks in the first place, but we now know--
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: That's right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --from Doctor Fauci it's because they were afraid of shortages.
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: And also worried that by telling people they could wear masks you're telling them they can go out. So at a time that they were telling people to stay at home, there was concern that telling them that if they wear masks, they're more safe will encourage people to go out. And so--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: --I think that could have been messaged appropriately. They didn't need to be concerned about that. We should have been recommending masks from the outset.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We heard from the secretary of Homeland Security earlier in the program, and he said the press and others only want to talk and focus on the increased case count and that testing is a good message. The President says testing is overrated. What is the bottom line, the science and the facts about where we are with this virus in America right now?
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Well, testing-- there's a high correlation between places that are doing more testing, more contact tracing, and have decreased mobility and have better-- a better picture right now. Some of the cases that we're collecting are because we're testing more. But the positivity rate is also going up in states like Texas where it's about eight percent, Florida about eight percent, Arizona almost twenty percent. We're seeing the positivity rates go up. That's a clear indication that there's now community spread underway. And this isn't just a function of testing more. So, some of it is testing more. We're probably capturing right now somewhere between one in five to one in ten infections. Before during the epidemic, we were probably measuring one in ten to one in twenty infections. So we're capturing a higher percentage of the overall infections, but the infections are also going up. So, this is an epidemic that's expanding in these states. And the challenge is there's not a clear endpoint. We're becoming more and more dependent upon a therapeutic intervention early in the fall to be our backstop because we're taking a lot of virus through this summer. We really shouldn't be where we are in June right now. It's not clear what's going to improve the picture in July and August if we're not going to start to impose additional mitigation, start closing bars and restaurants. And states aren't going to want to do that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: They're going to be slow to do that. So, these case counts are going to build.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And many of these states we're talking about are not doing those things you're recommending. I want to ask you, though, about what some of the businesses are doing because it was businesses who kind of led the way in shutting down in the first place. Apple shuttered stores in Arizona, Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina due to outbreaks. Every team in Major League Baseball is going to shut their-- their camps due to this. Are corporations going to have to lead the way this time, as well?
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Well, corporations led the way last time, I think--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is it on the business owner to shut-- shut it down, in other words? Is the restaurant owner responsible for making that decision--
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: Yeah. I--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --and not the state? Not the mayor?
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: That's what happened last time. The states and the local school districts really forced the-- the hand of policymakers on shutting down the economy. I think what you're going to see is businesses that are national in scope are going to close stores regionally. And that's what we saw with Apple. We saw-- saw with another business today in Florida. I think school districts right now are contemplating how they reopen, and some of them might make decisions not to reopen what-- looking at all these trends in these states. It's going to be harder for them to lock into plans. I think they should try to reopen in the fall. But if there's a lot of virus still in July and August, it's going to be very hard for them to reopen these schools. So if we want to reopen the schools, we've got to get this under control. We-- we might have to take a little bit of economic pain right now to get this under better control in these states to open up the opportunity to open schools in the fall, which is going to have a big economic benefit because parents can't go back to work in earnest--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
SCOTT GOTTLIEB: --unless the kids are in school.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Absolutely. Good point. Thank you very much, Doctor Gottlieb. Always good to talk to you.
Be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We want to go now to the island of Kauai in Hawaii, where CEO Jide Zeitlin is this morning. He's the head of a Fortune 500 company called Tapestry Incorporated. You know them as the parent company of luxury fashion brands Coach, Kate Spade, and Stuart Weitzman. Good morning.
JIDE ZEITLIN (Tapestry Inc., CEO): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know this week we saw from the Commerce Department this announcement that consumers were spending in May. Retail sales numbers were better than expected. I'm-- I'm wondering what you think is happening with consumers right now.
JIDE ZEITLIN: What we see, and we see this around our global businesses, that consumers have remained engaged. Even during a period where all of our brick-and-mortar stores were closed, they were very engaged digitally with our brands, with our products. And now, as they have the opportunity to engage in a physical way, we see them doing so and doing so enthusiastically. Although it's-- it's a slow step-by-step process. So it's not just a return to where things were, but the opportunity to engage physically and digitally is something that we see consumers being enthusiastic to do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you're reopening a number of your businesses not just in this country, but also in China, which continues to see these flare-ups of COVID-19. I wonder how you're dealing with that sort of start-stop, flare up, pull back. Do you go ahead and rehire people to actually work in stores, or are those jobs going to come back at all?
JIDE ZEITLIN: Well, we held on longer than most of our peers, and so we did not furlough or lay off employees for quite some time globally and-- and particularly here in North America. But what we have seen is that we went from fully shut in Asia to today in China being fully opened, in South Korea being fully opened. And that has stayed steady. At the same time, in North America we're gradually opening, but really taking the lead from our store employees, from our consumers, so that we look to avoid both start and stop, but also want to make sure we do it in a way that makes the most sense for our employees.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the jobs are coming back, you think? It's not all going to be online shopping from here on out?
JIDE ZEITLIN: Without a doubt, Margaret, at least in our-- in our case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Okay.
JIDE ZEITLIN: We think the consumer is really moving towards a balance, a blend, between digital and physical.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Now, we-- we talked about you being the head of one of Fortune 500 companies, one of the largest corporations in the world, that means. And you are one of only four African-Americans in-- in that list. There are zero black women on that list among the thirty-seven female leaders. And I wonder what you think the reason is. Why at the highest levels is diversity still a challenge?
JIDE ZEITLIN: Yeah, it's an unfortunate reality, and it's a real opportunity. And it's an opportunity really for boards and for managements to challenge themselves, to really challenge themselves in terms of both diversity and inclusivity. So you focused in terms of statistics on diversity, and it's clear that we need to better recognize that it's not simply a nice thing, it's a real business imperative to have a diverse number of views around the table. The more you have different life perspectives, different experiences around the table, we develop better products, we develop better solutions as corporations. And it's one of America's great strengths if we get it right. So it's really holding ourselves much more accountable, the same way we hold ourselves accountable for revenue and profit targets to make sure that we are diverse. And then to meet that diversity with a really inclusive environment, one that encourages people to show up fully at work as themselves.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But-- but how does-- corporations are having to make these decisions on their own. What's the best way to do these things? Is it setting quotas? Is it hiring headhunters and talent scouts to bring in people from the inside? How do you put this into practice?
JIDE ZEITLIN: It's holding ourselves accountable for goals in the same way we hold ourselves accountable for revenue and profit metrics. And it is fundamentally believing that this is a business imperative. You know I noted last week that you had Rob Kaplan on your show, and he made the comment representing the Federal Reserve, the belief that inclusively translates into greater workforce growth, greater productivity growth, and greater economic growth. And so we exist within an ecosystem, within an economic ecosystem. The faster that ecosystem is growing because it is more diverse and inclusive, the faster we will grow. So it's a real imperative, and we need to hold ourselves accountable the same way we do against other business metrics.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But when you say business metrics, that means setting quotas? Because I-- I read that you had said, "Diversity by itself doesn't mean a lot until you change the culture of your organization." Those seem like two different things.
JIDE ZEITLIN: They are two different things. So it is goals as I-- as I think about it. So being very clear that our workforce ought to be-- ought to look like the American demographic. And-- and it's not setting goals that are five or ten years out. It's setting goals that are quite immediate, in the same way as my board holds me accountable for revenue and profit metrics, not five and ten years out, but this year and next year. That is the diversity piece of it. And then on the inclusivity piece, it's recognizing that you don't change your culture so that if a more diverse workforce comes and they find themselves living in a 1950s culture and in a culture that is not representative of where America is today, you won't keep your people. You won't motivate your people. You won't get the best out of your people. So it's having a culture that-- or-- or being more inclusive that-- that actually encourages people to fully show up as themselves.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right. Jide, thank you very much for your time and your reflections.
JIDE ZEITLIN: Thank you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Americans across the country honored Juneteenth as a day of reflection and in some cases celebration this past Friday. It is meant to commemorate June 19th, 1865, the day slaves in Galveston, Texas, learned they were free and the civil war was over. Some states in U.S. corporations have newly designated it a paid holiday. New York Times columnist and CBS News political analyst Jamelle Bouie joins us from Charlottesville, Virginia, this morning to give us some more context. Good morning.
JAMELLE BOUIE (CBS News Political Analyst/@jbouie): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know, many Americans are really learning about the historical significance of Juneteenth for the first time, and you reflected on it in a column this week. But you say you don't think of it as slaves having been granted freedom, but rather seizing it for themselves. What do you mean by that?
JAMELLE BOUIE: The story of emancipation, going really back to the founding of the country all the way to the Civil War is very much the story of enslaved Africans and-- and freed blacks taking the initiative to put their freedom on the agenda of national politics. That's especially true during the Civil War. The war, as many people know, it does not begin as a war for abolition. It begins as a war for Union. But as soon as the shooting starts, enslaved people are escaping to Union lines. They're leaving work on plantations. They're offering their assistance to-- to Union soldiers as guides, as laborers and, eventually, as soldiers. And it's those actions that transform the war for Union into a war for liberation, into a war for emancipation. And although Juneteenth commemorates those enslaved Africans who were whisked away to Texas to avoid the-- the Emancipation Proclamation, I think it's still an opportunity for us to really think and take seriously the fact that emancipation does not happen without the actions of the enslaved, not just over the war, but really over the course of eighty years.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you're finding some resonance in that in the moment we're in today?
JAMELLE BOUIE: That's right. I think why this moment? Why Juneteenth has sort of erupted in this way over the past couple of weeks, why people find it so resonant right now is that Juneteenth is very much a holiday about the distance between freedom that is promised and freedom that is lived. And right now, millions of Americans are seeing with regards to the police brutality, with regards to inequality, the distance that still exists between freedom and liberty, as we imagine it, as we have proclaimed it, and that has actually experienced by ordinary people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Texas Senator John Cornyn and Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee are talking about trying to make it a federal holiday. You have a lot of corporations acknowledging it, some giving the day off as well now. But you kind of said that doesn't sit quite right with you. You see it as a little bit opportunistic.
JAMELLE BOUIE: Right. It's-- no one's going to complain about a paid holiday, right? Like everyone likes paid holidays. But when-- when-- when we think about what protesters are calling for, when we think about what, you know, actualizing freedom actually means, I-- I happen to think that a-- a more fitting tribute to Juneteenth would be policies that assist not just African Americans, but every American to help them reach their full potential, help them, again, actualize their freedom in a real way. That, to me, is what the holiday is about. It's about that distance and what we can do to close that distance.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're speaking to us from Charlottesville, Virginia. And I don't have to tell you, but to remind our audience, that was the location in 2017 for what became a fatal white supremacist rally. And it-- it was sparked originally by the statue of Robert E. Lee and the--
JAMELLE BOUIE: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --debate over whether to remove that symbol of the Confederacy. Fast forward to today. I mean this week we had the governor of Virginia talk about taking down Lee in the capital of the Confederacy. Isn't that progress?
JAMELLE BOUIE: I-- I think that's progress. I think that represents Americans coming to recognize what those statues were erected for. They weren't erected as memorials after the war. They were very much erected as symbols of Jim Crow, as symbols of white supremacy. I think it's the public beginning to come to the recognition that public space is ours to shape. Right? That when we put up memorials or monuments, we are trying to present a particular memory--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
JAMELLE BOUIE: --of the past that we want to remember. And do we want to remember, honor a past where someone like Robert E. Lee was a central figure, a figure of esteem?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
JAMELLE BOUIE: I don't think we do. I don't think millions of Americans want to. And so that is, I think, what we're seeing and--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Okay.
JAMELLE BOUIE: --and it does constitute progress.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Jamelle, thank you.
We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Former national security advisor John Bolton is the subject of considerable criticism from the Trump White House in light of his new book. Yesterday, President Trump said he had been upset with Bolton since the beginning, starting with an appearance right here on FACE THE NATION more than two years ago. Let's listen.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP (Fox News): He was being interviewed on to FACE THE NATION, one of your friendly shows, and he talked about the Libyan model on Kim Jong-un, who I have a very good relationship with and had a very good relationship with. Once he mentioned that, it was not a good situation. I said, "How stupid can you be?" Because you know what happened to Qaddafi. Nobody wants to die the way he died. And here's a guy saying we like the Libyan model. And all I could do is hope that they didn't see it, but they did see it. It was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on television, frankly. So he lost me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Of course, we call our broadcast FACE THE NATION. And we will be talking to John Bolton again in two weeks on July 5th.
But that is going to do it for us today. We want to wish all of the dads out there watching a happy Father's Day. Until next week, for FACE THE NATION, I'm Margaret Brennan.