Full transcript of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Oct. 20, 2024
On this "Face the Nation" broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Sen. Raphael Warnock, Democrat of Georgia
- Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger
- Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson
- Rep. Mike Lawler, Republican of New York
- Paul Whelan, Marine veteran freed in prisoner swap with Russia
Click here to browse full transcripts of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan. And this week on FACE THE NATION, candidates are crisscrossing battleground states, making their final pitches to voters.
Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump held dueling rallies last night. And with 16 days to go until Election Day, the attacks are turning increasingly personal.
(BEGIN VC)
DONALD TRUMP (R), (Former U.S. President And 2024 Presidential Candidate): You're a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) vice president. The worst. You're the worst vice president. Kamala, you're fired!
KAMALA HARRIS, (Vice President Of The U.S. (D) And U.S. Presidential Candidate): He is only focused on himself, and now he's ducking debates and canceling interviews because of exhaustion.
(END VC)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll talk with Georgia's Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock.
New York Republican Mike Lawler, who is running in a close House race, will also join us.
Early voting is underway in most of the country, with record turnout in some battleground states. We'll talk with two secretaries of state, Georgia's Brad Raffensperger, and Michigan's Jocelyn Benson.
Plus, in his first interview since becoming a free man, Paul Whelan recounts the five and a half years he was wrongfully detained by Russia.
It's all just ahead on FACE THE NATION.
Good morning, and welcome to FACE THE NATION, where we are two weeks and two days until the election.
We begin this morning with Caitlin Huey-Burns who is with the Trump campaign in Pittsburgh.
(BEGIN VT)
CAITLIN HUEY-BURNS (voice over): Campaigning at an airport hangar near Pittsburgh, former President Trump ramped up his attacks on the current administration and his opponent, Kamala Harris.
DONALD TRUMP (R), (Former U.S. President And 2024 Presidential Candidate): This election is a choice between whether we will have an incredible four more years of failure and such a horrible four years. We had a horrible - think of the - everything they touch turns to (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
CAITLIN HUEY-BURNS (voice over): Trump lost Pennsylvania in 2020, and he wants it back. The state's 19 electoral votes are up for grabs, with CBS News polling showing a dead heat.
FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We will cut your taxes, demolish inflation, slash your prices, raise your wages and turn the United States into the manufacturing superpower of the world.
CAITLIN HUEY-BURNS (voice over): Trump spent more than ten minutes off script, with an unusual tribute to the legendary pro golfer and Pennsylvanian, Arnold Palmer, the namesake of the rally's venue.
FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: This is a guy that was all man. This man was strong and tough. And I refuse to say it, but when he took showers with the other pros, they came out of there, and they said, oh, my God. That's unbelievable.
CAITLIN HUEY-BURNS (voice over): And last week, when one potential voter expressed concern about his handling of January 6th, Trump was defiant.
FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: You had hundreds of thousands of people come to Washington. They thought the election was a rigged election. And that's why they came. Some of those people went down to the Capitol. I said, peacefully and patriotically. Nothing done wrong at all. Nothing done wrong.
But that was a day of love.
(END VT)
CAITLIN HUEY-BURNS: Trump is campaigning across Pennsylvania again today, and his comments are providing more fodder for his opponent, Kamala Harris.
My colleague Weijia Jiang is traveling with the vice president in the battleground state of Georgia.
(BEGIN VT)
WEIJIA JIANG (voice over): Last night in Atlanta, Vice President Harris made an unusual move to call attention to what she says is a Trump administration policy, overturning Roe v. Wade.
KAMALA HARRIS, (Vice President Of The U.S. (D) And U.S. Presidential Candidate): Roll the clip.
WEIJIA JIANG (voice over): Harris showed supporters a video, telling the story of a pregnant woman whose death after Georgia's restrictive six-week abortion ban went into effect galvanized abortion rights supporters. Her parents were in the crowd.
VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: I promised Amber's mother that we will always remember her story, and speak her name, Amber Nicole Thurman.
WEIJIA JIANG (voice over): And Harris emphasized Trump's role in overturning Roe v. Wade.
VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: Donald Trump still refuses to take accountability.
WEIJIA JIANG (voice over): In Michigan, home to the largest Arab American community in the country, there are concerns from Democrats that Biden administration's support for Israel's war in Gaza could cost Harris votes. Last week she brought up the death of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar.
VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: Everyone must seize this opportunity to finally end the war in Gaza, and end the suffering once and for all.
WEIJIA JIANG (voice over): Not only is Harris focused on Trump's policies, but she stepped up her attacks on Trump personally, including on his mental fitness.
VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: He's becoming increasingly instable and unhinged, and it requires that response.
WEIJIA JIANG (voice over): Another Harris challenge, attracting male voters. Former President Obama has been helping to undermine Trump's efforts to win the so-called bro vote.
BARACK OBAMA, (Former U.S. President): The men who seem to think Trump's behavior of bullying people and putting them down is somehow a macho sign of strength. I'm telling you, that's not what real strength is. Never has been.
(END VT)
WEIJIA JIANG: Obama and Harris will finally campaign together for the first time on Thursday. This morning, the vice president is attending a service at this Baptist church, and will be participating in events aimed at reaching black voters.
Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's Weijia Jiang reporting from Atlanta.
We go now to Democratic Senator Reverend Raphael Warnock of Georgia.
Good morning to you.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA): Good morning, Margaret. Great to be with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator, we have seen incredible turnout at the polls in Georgia so far. On Friday, though, Vice President Harris spoke about attacks on the freedom to vote, and she specifically referenced the state of Georgia.
As you know, the Department of Justice and the state have been fighting, going all the way back to 2021 about some state laws that the Justice Department said denied or bridged the right of black Georgians to vote on account of their race or color. The Justice Department did not win that case.
Do you think that the vice president's continued comments could backfire here in terms of discouraging people from showing up to vote?
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: No, I think the aim of voter suppression is to discourage people from voting.
Look, we - we saw the shenanigans of the Georgia state board of elections for what they are, this effort to literally change the rules while people are voting. And the courts rightly pushed back on that.
Remember that during my runoff, my last runoff, we - I had to sue the state of Georgia, state officials, just so people could vote the first weekend of the runoff. Thankfully, the courts got it right during my election. By the way, my margin of victory was close to the number of people who voted that first weekend that they said we couldn't vote.
The courts got it right in my case. They got it right again this week. But I think the most important thing is for folks to show up. The way to respond to this is to not - to allow your - to not allow anyone to silence your voice. I'm glad that we're see thing incredible turnout all across our state. I think it speaks to the vigilance of the people of Georgia. And I hope they'll keep it up all the way through early voting, which ends on November 1st.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: And then that they will get others there on November 5th.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But your governor, Brian Kemp, said the truth is that it's easy to vote and hard to cheat in Georgia. And he has criticized the vice president and Democratic officials saying they lied about Georgia's election laws to raise campaign cash and spare people. Doesn't this high turnout assuage some of what you call attempts at voter suppression.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: Listen, I've been through a few elections in Georgia. And what we saw was lines wrapped around buildings. We saw the effort of state officials to make it impossible for people to vote the first weekend of our runoff. And Georgians stood up.
Listen, the fact that voter - voters turned out doesn't mean there's no voter suppression. It just means that people aren't willing to have their voices silenced or muted. And the good news is that they're showing up. And we'll keep this going between now and November 1st and then show up on election day on November 5th.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you stand by your - your belief that there are attempts to suppress the vote in Georgia?
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: Listen, we - we - we saw what the state board of elections did just this last week.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the court -
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: They literally are trying to change the election rules in the middle of an election -
MARGARET BRENNAN: But - but the court struck those down.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: Of an election, and the courts - the courts had to undo what they were trying to do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: And what I'm saying to the people of Georgia is that the way to respond to this is to keep showing up, because when we show up, we win.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And, lastly, are you concerned at all about political violence in your state?
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: Listen, I think it's very important that all of us remind ourselves that in the United States of America, we have robust arguments about the direction of the country, about the size of government, about what government should deliver, and those arguments are robust and sometimes rambunctious in order to avoid violence. And so, I trust that cooler heads will prevail, and that we will remember that at the end of the day that contrary to what Donald Trump has suggested, our enemies are not within. We are an American people. We don't always agree on everything. But the great thing is that we can have this conversation. That's what democracy looks like. And we're seeing it play out right now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Understood. Thank you for your time this morning.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: Great to be with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: FACE THE NATION will be back in one minute.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to Georgia's Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger.
Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.
SECRETARY OF STATE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER (R-GA): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You just heard the senator from Georgia's comments that high turnout does not prove there is a lack of voter suppression in your state. He pointed to that failed state election board attempt to change election rules as sort of proof of intent there.
How do you respond to that and how do you shore up confidence in your state's system?
SECRETARY OF STATE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER: Well, it was actually very sad to hear what he said, but he's been hand-picked by Stacey Abrams when he ran several years ago. And she is actually the founder of the election denial movement. She lost back in 2018 by 55,000 votes. And then when we passed the Election Integrity Act of 2021, she said it was Jim Crow 2.0.
But what you've seen in the 2022 election and this election is record turnout. We now have photo I.D. for all forms of voting. People were concerned about signature match. We'd actually been sued by the Democrat Party and the Republican Party questioning, you know, the validity of signature match. So, we added that, layered that on top, you know, of - we added photo I.D. on top of signature match so that people know we are identifying who those voters are.
And then you look at the turnout. We're almost pushing 1.4 million who have already voted early or who we've accepted their absentee ballots. We're probably going to see a record turnout early voting. Probably 65, maybe even 70 percent of all Georgians are going to vote that way. But they have a free will choice on how to vote.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY OF STATE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER: As it relates to the state election board rules, I never supported any of those. I was very vocal about it on day one. And they were ruled unconstitutional. They were shut down.
But both Republican counties, two Republican controlled boards and two election boards actually joined those suits and - and fought against those state election board.
So, it's actually very easy to vote. We have photo I.D. We verify citizenship. And we have record turnout.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it - there's also doubt on the Republican side of the ledger. As you know, your party's not a monolith. And Georgia Congresswoman Margorie Taylor Greene is claiming fraud is underway in Whitfield County. She said Dominion voting machines were flipping votes. The county board said there was just one case of a printed ballot not reflecting a voter's selection.
And then one of your colleagues said this was just human user error.
So, as the state's top election official, have you seen any evidence of fraud?
SECRETARY OF STATE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER: No. And what happened in Whitfield County was, the lady thought she had pressed a certain, you know, selection. And then when she printed out the ballot, she noted that. She - she saw that and so then she made them aware of it and it got corrected. And then it got blown out of proportion by people that like to use, you know, Twitter and other forms of social media.
But we're going to respond quickly to these sorts of things in 2024 because it's not supported by the facts. The equipment's working. We've done all sorts of audits, you know, since the last election and coming up to this election.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it wasn't just some people, it was an elected representative for that district, the congresswoman, Marjorie Taylor Greene, who said that.
But I want to ask you about another thing because we - I think it's important to level set for people at home about what is happening with this election.
As I understand it, nearly all votes cast in this upcoming election will be recorded on paper. Last night -
SECRETARY OF STATE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER: Absolutely, 100 percent will be.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SECRETARY OF STATE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER: It's actually security paper with the state seal on it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK, important point to establish because yesterday President Trump said something and implied that because it can take time to tabulate votes, there might be something nefarious here.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VC)
DONALD TRUMP (R), (Former U.S. President And 2024 Presidential Candidate): They spent all this money on machines, and then they announce, we expect to have the results like seven days after the election. If you had paper ballots, you get them at 10:00. France went to paper because what we did didn't work.
(END VC)
MARGARET BRENNAN: He's pointing to a lack of paper ballots as a problem here. Is he accurately describing what's happening? And how long will it take to tabulate votes?
SECRETARY OF STATE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER: In Georgia - in Georgia, 100 percent of all the votes cast will be on a paper ballot. But, actually, nationwide, it's going to be over 96 percent to 97 percent of all voting in America will be on paper ballots.
But we also just put into law this year with SB-189 that all early votes and all early accepted ballots, they all will have to have their results reported by 8:00 p.m. That's 70 - maybe even 75 percent of all the vote totals will be reported no later than 8:00 p.m. on election night.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Won't take seven days to tabulate votes as he said?
SECRETARY OF STATE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER: Absolutely not. What we will be waiting for is the overseas ballots that come in no later than Friday. And so those will then be the final numbers. And we'll just see if that makes a difference in the total vote totals. I understand we're very competitive. That's why we've done everything since day one to make sure we have fast, accurate, and secure elections for all my voters here in Georgia.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You are a Republican. You have said in the past that you supported Donald Trump in 2016 and in 2020. You famously refused his attempts to overturn election results in your state after the 2020 election.
For the record, this year, if the presidential candidate of the other party wins, will you enforce election certification for that winner?
SECRETARY OF STATE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER: I'm going to make sure that whoever wins this race, that is what gets certified. I'm going to follow the law and follow the Constitution. I'm going to do my job, and that's what the people of Georgia have elected me to do. I represent the voters of Georgia.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, at a rally in August, Donald Trump publicly praised those state board of election officials we talked about earlier. Three of them who were there as his supporters present at the rally. He called them pit bulls fighting for transparency and victory, and he said this -
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), (Former U.S. President And 2024 Presidential Candidate): Your governor, Kemp, and Raffensperger, they're been doing everything possible to make 2024 difficult for Republicans to win. They - what are they doing? I don't know. They've got something in mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARGARET BRENNAN: He's talking about you. This sounds like an attempt to influence election officials. Does this cross a line?
SECRETARY OF STATE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER: Well, it doesn't influence me, because everything we've done, from House Bill 316 back in 2019, SB-202 in 2021 and SB-189, everything we've done is to shore up voter's concern, shore up security, but also we are making sure that the lines that, you know, Senator Warnock just mentioned, there's state law now, lines have to be shorter than one hour on Election Day, and we track it. And the average wait time in 2022 was actually three minutes and sometimes got down to two minutes. And even during this early voting period, lines we've been seeing reported at the early vote centers, but lines have been less than an hour.
But you also get checked in with the electronic poll pads in less than two minutes. I got checked in this past week with my wife. We got checked in, in less than 47 - 47 seconds. I timed it. Pretty amazing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Secretary Raffensperger, we'll be watching your battleground state closely. Good luck.
We'll be right back. And a lot more FACE THE NATION.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to Michigan's secretary of state, Jocelyn Benson.
Good morning to you, Madame Secretary.
SECRETARY OF STATE JOCELYN BENSON (D-MI): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, more than 1 million people have already voted in Michigan, more than 2 million people have requested absentee ballots. I know you cast your own ballot in Detroit, which began voting yesterday. What's the turnout like?
SECRETARY OF STATE JOCELYN BENSON: Well, people are energized and it's been really exciting to see. Now we're over two weeks out, just over two weeks out and already, as you mentioned, over a million citizens have returned their absentee ballots, which is a great sign for an engaged electorate on both sides of the aisle.
And then yesterday, Detroit launched early, in-person voting, where citizens could come and actually put their ballots into the machine. That's what I did. And I joined close to 2,000 others who did that.
And just to give you some comparison. The first day of early, in-person voting in Detroit, in the August primary, we saw just over 200 people vote. This time we saw 2,000 - or close to 2,000. Ten times almost as many. So, that shows Detroit citizens are overwhelmingly enthusiastic and engaged. And I'm really grateful for all our partners who have been educating citizens about their rights to vote in these final weeks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, I want to ask you the same question I asked your colleague from Georgia. If the presidential candidate from the other party wins, will you enforce election certification for that winner if it's potentially Donald Trump?
SECRETARY OF STATE JOCELYN BENSON: Yes, without hesitation. I mean that's my job. That's our job as professional election administrators, to make sure it's easy to vote, hard to cheat and that we all stand by the will of the people, whatever that may be.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How quickly do you expect to get results?
SECRETARY OF STATE JOCELYN BENSON: Well, you know, in 2020, we had the results of our highest turnout election in Michigan history within 24 hours of the polls closing. The unofficial results were completed by 8:00 p.m. on Wednesday. So, we're tracking that again this year. We do have more options to process ballots sooner than Election Day, which is where we were restricted in 2020. So, I'm optimistic we could see results even sooner. But I would estimate end of the day on Wednesday as the best guess on how we'll perform.
But that said, we will always prioritize accuracy and security over efficiency. Understanding how much people will want those results, we're still going to make sure the process is secure and accurate before we put anything out to the public.
But that said, we understand people's energy and excitement and we'll be working hard to ensure those results are ready as soon as possible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have been posting on X, formally known as Twitter, about Elon Musk, who you have accused intentionally spreading false information about Michigan voters. He is a big supporter of Donald Trump. He owns that platform. Do you believe - what do you believe his intention is here, and how concerned are you that he's misleading voters?
SECRETARY OF STATE JOCELYN BENSON: Well, I'll say two things. One, we know adversaries to democracy right now are trying to create chaos and confusion and sow seeds of distrust around our very clear and legitimate and accurate and secure processes of running elections, not just in Michigan but around the country. So, it's incumbent upon all of us to look to trusted sources of information, like your local election official, and use data to evaluate questions as opposed to people who are running social media companies with particular agendas and who have a history in amplifying conspiracy theories and false information.
So, in this moment, it will be my responsibility, and really everyone's, to look and promote and amplify trusted information about our elections so that people can know both where to go with questions and also have faith in the results.
We have set up a website, michigan.gov/electionfacts, which addresses every single question people have raised. And we encourage citizens to go there, as opposed to social media, for seeking trusted and accurate information about our elections.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have previously said that Michigan, your state, is being targeted by foreign actors who are trying to disrupt the democratic process. Have you been given concrete evidence or examples by U.S. intelligence about what is happening in your battleground state? Like, what form is it taking?
SECRETARY OF STATE JOCELYN BENSON: We know that our - because our systems are secure, there are foreign bad actors and adversaries to democracy on a global scale who will seek to potentially not hack our systems but hack voters' minds, to spread falsehoods and misinformation, not just to sow seeds of distrust, but to diminish citizens' confidence in the process and in their own voices.
And you see it amplifying now because if there is enough noise, you can cause people to potentially give up and say -
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY OF STATE JOCELYN BENSON: I don't know what to believe, I'm disengaging all together. That's the goal.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SECRETARY OF STATE JOCELYN BENSON: So, we're seeing efforts to amplify misinformation and are prepared to, again, push back with real information.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Understood.
SECRETARY OF STATE JOCELYN BENSON: But we need voters to be a part of that as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
Thank you for setting the table for us, Madam Secretary.
We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.
We go now to Republican Congressman Mike Lawler of New York.
Good morning and welcome to the show.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Good morning, Margaret. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
You are in a competitive race in your Hudson Valley area. We know two years ago Republicans flipped four seats in the state of New York, and former Speaker Nancy Pelosi said it was New York that cost Democrats the majority. Your seat was one of them.
So, given all of the infighting within the Republican Party right now, what is your affirmative argument to your voters potentially here that Republicans should retain control?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE LAWLER: Well, look, we're in a deeply divided government. Obviously, Democrats control the Senate and the White House right now. Republicans control the House. Regardless of the outcome in November, we're still going to have very tight margins, whether it's in the House or the Senate.
And I've proven myself to be a bipartisan legislator. I've been rated the fourth most bipartisan member of Congress. I've passed ten bills, five of which have been signed into law by President Biden. The voters in my district understand that I will work tirelessly to get things done on their behalf, working with Republicans and Democrats.
And in this Congress, you know, in the House, we've actually gotten a lot done. We reined in federal spending, saving taxpayers $2.1 trillion over the next decade, capping federal spending at 1 percent. The reckless spending we saw in the first two years of the Biden administration is why we dealt with record inflation, why grocery prices, energy prices, housing costs have gone up astronomically.
In my district, Margaret, the average mortgage cost is up $1,000 a month over the last year because of high interest rates trying to contain inflation.
This has been a challenge for folks. And when I'm out in the district, what folks are most concerned about is the affordability crisis, the crisis at our southern border -
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE LAWLER: And the international crises around the globe.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
Well, there are a lot of contributing factors to inflation. Fiscal spending certainly potentially one of them.
But I want to follow up on something you just said, because you are perceived, certainly here in Washington, as a moderate Republican who is willing to reach across the aisle.
In a Fox town hall this past week, Donald Trump said the enemy inside the United States is more dangerous than China, Russia, and other countries.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VC)
DONALD TRUMP (R), (Former U.S. President And 2024 Presidential Candidate): It is the enemy from within. And they're very dangerous. They're Marxists and communists and fascists. And they're sick.
I use a guy like Adam Schiff, because they made up the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax.
We have China. We have Russia. We have all these countries. If you have a smart president, they can all be handled. The more difficult are - you know, the Pelosis, these people, they're so sick and they're so evil.
(END VC)
MARGARET BRENNAN: The leader of your party, and potentially the next president of the United States, says that Democrats are more dangerous than nuclear Russia, than China. If you're re-elected, how is it possible that you would be able to reach across the aisle and work with Democrats?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE LAWLER: Well, I've done it. You know, I've been praised by President Biden as somebody who he can work with, somebody who can reach across the aisle and address the challenges that we're facing as a country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But in a Trump administration.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE LAWLER: I am a member of the Problem Solvers. Some of my closest colleagues in Washington have been Josh Gottheimer, Ritchie Torres, Jared Moskowitz.
Look, at the end of the day, the American people are going to decide in 16 days who the next president is going to be, and who controls Congress.
I have proven, in this Congress, in a divided government, that I can work across the aisle to get things done. And I will say this, when you look around at the challenges facing the United States, the greatest threat is the unholy alliance between China, Russia, and Iran, and the work they are doing to undermine and destabilize the United States, Israel, Europe, and the free world. That is the threat that I have been focused on in Congress. It's why I passed the Special Envoy for the Abraham Accords Act, why I passed the Ship (ph) Act and the Iran, China Energy Sanctions Act, to take on that illicit oil trade between China and Iran that is funding terrorism, that is funding Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and other terrorist networks in the region, and why Israel is under constant threat.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, but you would then, I assume in your answer, be disputing the idea that Democrats are so sick and so evil that they're worse than Russia and China. That seems to be what you're saying. But doesn't -
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE LAWLER: Look, we - we - I - I think that, Margaret, the rhetoric - the rhetoric -
MARGARET BRENNAN: Doesn't rhetoric like that feed into the divisions that our adversaries are exploiting?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE LAWLER: Yes. Well, there's no question that our adversaries exploit our divisions. When Democrats say that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy, that Republicans are part of a fascist movement, that undermines us as well.
All of the rhetoric needs to stop. We need to focus on the threats that are actually facing the United States, which are from China, Russia, and Iran. The crisis at our southern border in which drug cartels are trafficking women, children, drugs, fentanyl pouring into our country. These are the challenges we need to focus on as an American people and as government officials. And that's my commitment, regardless of the outcome of this election in November.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Before I let you go, you have worked on a bill to try to prevent rogue states from taking Americans hostage. We'll hear shortly from Paul Whelan, a freed American hostage. How do you stop countries from doing this?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE LAWLER: Look, we need to be very firm and resolute. Obviously, Russia has engaged in this for years. You see seven Americans still being held hostage by Hamas in this conflict currently. Iran, over the years, has taken Americans hostage. We need to implement sanctions on these regimes, and we need to get our allies to recognize -
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE LAWLER: These are not folks we can work with.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE LAWLER: And so we've introduced legislation to combat it directly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we'll hear from Paul Whelan up next.
We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Freed hostage American Paul Whelan came back home this August after a five and a half year imprisonment on trumped up espionage charges. In his first interview since becoming a free man and returning from Russia, Whelan shared with us his experience.
(BEGIN VT)
PAUL WHELAN (Released American Hostage): The Russian government wanted to put pressure on the United States by treating me badly. Sleep deprivation is considered torture. What the Russians did in Lefortovo Prison, it's the FSB prison in Moscow, they kept a light on 24 hours in my cell. So, sleeping was very difficult. At the labor camp for four years, they would come every two night - or every two hours to my bed at night, and they would wake me up. They'd shine a light in my face and take a picture. Every night, every two hours, I was woken up.
Getting off that sleep pattern has been very, very difficult.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You were in Moscow in 2018, as I understand it, for a friend's wedding. And Russia, I guess, has now released a video of your arrest, showing an acquaintance who worked for the FSB putting a flash drive into your hand in a Moscow bathroom. Moments later, you are arrested. Who was that man? I think his name's Ilya Yatsenko. Who was he and did he set you up?
PAUL WHELAN: Well, those are issues that I'm not really prepared to speak about right now. I am going to write a book, and that's a situation I'll explain in the book.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think, though, that you were targeted, that - that you were being set up?
PAUL WHELAN: Well, I was certainly targeted. I hadn't done anything. I hadn't committed espionage. I was accused of being a brigadier general with the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency, the DIA. I certainly, you know, was never a general, and I never worked for the DIA, and I was never a secret agent. So, the case they came up with was, you know, materially false. I was obviously set up.
MARGARET BRENNAN: At the time you were a global head of security for an auto parts firm.
PAUL WHELAN: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have a background in the Marines. You have a background as a police officer. And you had begun corresponding with Russians. You traveled to Russia on a fairly frequent basis. Did it ever enter your mind that there was reason to suspect that you were a spy?
PAUL WHELAN: Well, you know, since an early age I've been traveling the world. I had taken my parents to Russia to see Moscow. It was safe for tourists. The - the problem, though, is, you know, you can never tell what a rogue regime is going to do. And that's what the Russians are. And they came after me. They said I was a spy, and then, obviously, they held me as a hostage. And that's - that's an important part to bring up, is that I was a hostage. And from day one the Russians told me that they were holding me to do a trade with the United States.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because they know that the American government will fight to get American citizens back.
PAUL WHELAN: Right. Yes. Who wants to leave a tourist in prison for no reason?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Were you working in any way for any government? I know you have citizenship in Canada, the U.S., Ireland, the U.K.
PAUL WHELAN: Well, those are issues that I'll discuss in the book. It's nothing that I want to get into now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you do think you were targeted by the FSB, which is part of Russian intelligence?
PAUL WHELAN: The FSB runs Russia. Yes, Yes. We have to be clear about that. So, when the FSB picked me up, it - they weren't just, you know, a couple beat cops that saw an American and thought they'd grab somebody. This - this sort of thing comes down from Putin.
MARGARET BREANN: So, when you were taken, about a year into your detention, your employer, BorgWarner, they restructured and they laid you off.
PAUL WHELAN: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That must have hit you really hard as you were sitting in Russia in detention. How did you deal with that?
PAUL WHELAN: If you can call an act by an employer un-American, that was un-American. What really bothered me wasn't so much losing my job, but that BorgWarner continued to do business in Russia while I was being held prisoner there. They refused to cooperate with the U.S. government. They refused to cooperate with people that were trying to help me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's just a contrast with other Americans who were detained. "The Wall Street Journal" reporter Evan Gershkovich.
PAUL WHELAN: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The WNBA star, Brittney Griner. They had advocacy behind them. Did you feel that you were just there alone? Not that -
PAUL WHELAN: Left out to dry?
MARGARET BRENNAN: And not -
PAUL WHELAN: Yes, BorgWarner left me out to dry. Yes, BorgWarner left me out to dry.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, in 2020, you're sentenced to 16 years in a Russian labor camp. And then, in 2022, the world changes dramatically. Not only is WNBA star Brittney Griner taken in mid-February of that year, Vladimir Putin shocks the world by invading Ukraine. How much of this were you hearing in terms of what was happening outside the prison?
PAUL WHELAN: I was fortunate. The ambassadors and the consular teams from my four countries, America, Canada, Ireland and England would come and visit me on a regular basis at the labor camp. I received a lot of information from them. You know, I did get mail from home. There - you know, the Russian media is just propaganda. And they didn't report much on the war because they were losing. And that was interesting for us. Information came in very, very slowly. But when the Russian government started taking prisoners from our camps to go to the war, then we knew they were really in trouble.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's when mercenaries, the Wagner group, this - this Russian group, was going into the prisons and telling convicts, you can get out if you come fight in Ukraine.
PAUL WHELAN: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did you lose people you knew to that fight?
PAUL WHELAN: Yes. Yes, from my camp, 450 went.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Wow.
PAUL WHELAN: I knew all of them. Some of them are dead. Some have arms and legs missing. They've all got some sort of, you know, PTSD. They went through a traumatic experience. They were used on the front lines to walk through minefields. They were used as cannon fodder. You know, they would be sent out in front of patrols to try to draw the enemy fire. I mean, that's what Russia is doing with these people. And they're all young. Putin has thrown away a generation of his youth in the Ukraine, for nothing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you in contact with some of those convicts who went out on the battlefield?
PAUL WHELAN: Yes. Yes. Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And that's what they're sharing with you?
PAUL WHELAN: The - the prisoners from the camp that went to the front line, they had communication, and they would communicate with us. And the communication from them, I was passing back to the four governments and -
MARGARET BRENNAN: How?
PAUL WHELAN: Through illegal cellphones.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You got a cellphone into the Russian labor camp?
PAUL WHELAN: Yes, we had burner phones.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's pretty incredible.
PAUL WHELAN: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And the guards didn't know about it or they just looked the other way?
PAUL WHELAN: They looked the other way. A Russian prison guard gets $300 to $400 a month. You give them a carton of cigarettes and you can do just about anything you want.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Trevor Reed, he was freed -
PAUL WHELAN: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In exchange for a Russian drug dealer. American diplomats told us Trevor Reed got out because the U.S. feared he was going to die in prison.
PAUL WHELAN: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you were left behind.
PAUL WHELAN: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That had to hurt.
PAUL WHELAN: Devastating. Devastating. I was told a deal was in the works. I was told that I would be home soon. Now, Trevor and I would be getting on a plane, flying out of Russia.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Together?
PAUL WHELAN: Together. Unfortunately, I was sitting in the factory working and on the - the radio, the Russian radio, I heard that a deal had been made and a trail - a trade had taken place for Trevor to go home. All I could do was just sit back and try to process what I had just heard in Russian. And all I could do was just, you know, keep on working. And then later I got to a phone and I was able to call Roger Carstens, and I asked him some pretty direct questions.
MARGARET BRENNAN: He's the hostage envoy.
PAUL WHELAN: Yes. I asked him some pretty direct questions.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What did you say?
PAUL WHELAN: Basically, WTF. Yes. Why am I here? I was glad that Trevor went home. That's not a problem. I was glad that Trevor went home, especially because he - he was suffering some medical conditions. He had, you know, some issues. And I said, OK, that's fine, but what about me? I'm still here. What are you going to do?
You know, I asked to speak to Secretary Blinken. And, of course, he and I had several long-winded phone calls from - from prison.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Between the State Department and the prison?
PAUL WHELAN: Yes
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're speaking with the secretary of state.
PAUL WHELAN: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did he apologize?
PAUL WHELAN: He explained, and he let me know that, you know, the United States was coming for me. They were doing everything they could. That the Russians kept changing the goalposts.
He's a good man. And, you know, I've met with him personally since my release. I think that he and his team were doing everything that they could at their level to get me home. You know, whether other people at higher levels really were, I don't know.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So that's April. And then, months later -
PAUL WHELAN: Right. I'm still there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're still there. And Brittney Griner, a WNBA star who'd been picked up on, you know, drug charges, was freed in exchange for Viktor Bout.
PAUL WHELAN: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The merchant of death. Your twin brother, David, said it was "a public disappointment," but he feared it would be a "catastrophe" for you. Your family was really worried about your well-being.
PAUL WHELAN: Well, I was too. I was too.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Was that your lowest point?
PAUL WHELAN: That was. And, you know, I started to explain earlier that I had been working in the factory. I was called to the warden's office. The FSB is there, et cetera, et cetera. There's a phone call for me. I pick up the phone. It's the White House. It's one of the - the - the officers with the - the DHS. And he basically tells me that, you know, Brittney Griner was going home, that the trade was for Viktor Bout. And, you know, I asked him point blank, I said, so what else do you have to trade? And he said, nothing. I said, you gave up your negotiation platform. There's nothing else. How do you now get me back? And he said, well, you know, we're going to reconvene tomorrow to discuss that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Oof.
PAUL WHELAN: And I said - you know, I said point blank to him, you - you realize what you've done, that you abandoned me here. You - you have no one to trade. They don't want anyone else. And he said, yes, yes, we realize that. And I said, well, you know, you know, say hello to Brittney. I'm glad she's going home. You know, she shouldn't have been there at all, ever.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the U.S. government did continue to try. And in fact, the Russians started testing out that assassin who had shot dead someone in the middle of Berlin. That was Vadim Krasikov.
PAUL WHELAN: Yes, as soon as he was arrested, they said, we'll trade him for Paul.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And this was extremely difficult. President Biden had to convince the German Chancellor -
PAUL WHELAN: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: To free a convicted assassin who shot someone dead in the light of day in the middle of Berlin.
PAUL WHELAN: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But ultimately, the German government agreed to do that.
What did you think of that trade?
PAUL WHELAN: I'm glad the president did what he did to get Evan and I home. You know, there were a few others, Alsu, she came home. Some of Navalny's people were released.
When you're the president, you have to make tough decisions. But the U.S. policy has to be one of deterrence. They've got to do something.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When you did make it out in this hostage swap, you landed here in the United States, and it was President Biden and Vice President Harris who met you on the tarmac.
PAUL WHELAN: I didn't realize the president and the vice president were going to be there. You know, I - I had been in solitary confinement for the five days prior to leaving at Lefortovo Prison in Moscow. You know, I had on clothes that I had worn in 2018 when I'd been arrested. You know, they hadn't been washed. They were too big for me. I was very careful coming down the - the, you know, the stairs from the plane. And so I came down slowly. I, you know, I waved at people that were waving at me. And then I gave the president a salute as commander in chief. And I just walked down to him and started talking to him. You know, I thanked him for getting us home.
President Biden, he was very, very personable. Same with Vice President Harris. You know, you saw us. We embraced. We hugged. We chatted. You know, at one point the president took the, you know, the flag lapel pin off his lapel and put it on my shirt. You know, we kind of milled about chatting and talking to the media and whatnot. And, you know, that - that made it real, because we were - we were with real people. We talked and we chatted.
There's a funny picture, I think I've - I've sent it to your team. In the operations building there was a TV on. And I'm standing by the TV watching. And somebody said, oh, that's - that's just the Olympics. I was like, really, because I hadn't seen the Olympics. And, you know, it was - it was women's basketball. And as I'm looking, I said, hey, look, it's Brittney. Brittney's on TV.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Brittney Griner.
PAUL WHELAN: So - yes. Yes. But it was just - it was one of those incredible moments where you're, you know, you're finally connecting things. Yes.
And, you know -
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's surreal.
PAUL WHELAN: It is. But, you know, Brittney was a great help. After she came home, you know, I think probably the, you know, within days of her getting home, she - she was talking to people about how they could support me. And she had people making monetary donations, sending cards, sending letters, offering all sorts of support. Her - her basketball team. All sorts of support.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You said, it didn't feel real until you were flying over England. What was it that you saw that hit home for you?
PAUL WHELAN: So, we'd gone to Turkey and now we're flying bac across Europe. And we're in a small plane, CIA plane. And - and I knew we were getting close to England. As we got closer, I saw the White Cliffs of Dover. So, you know, there was - there was absolutely no question. I mean, they are so white. They're whiter than the White House, but it's -
MARGARET BRENNAN: You had to have thought of your parents too.
PAUL WHELAN: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
PAUL WHELAN: Yes. And, you know, my family members, you know, in England and Ireland, and actually in France and Poland also, you know, they were monitoring what was happening. They knew what was happening. And, you know, I thought about them knowing that I'd be flying over, you know, their homes on my way back.
So, yes, it's still emotional to this day. It's not every day that you're held hostage. It's not every day that you're released. So, there's a lot, you know, we - you talk about PTSD, there's a lot of that that comes back in a positive manner. And you know, that was one of those moments where I wasn't expecting to see the White Cliffs of Dover, but I did. And, you know, during the war they - they guided the Spitfire pilots back. And, you know, for me, it was guiding me and Evan and Alsu back to United States. So, yes, it's still - it's still one of those things that - that I think about. It's - it's - it's emotional, and I'm sure it always will be. But you know, that's one of the good memories.
(END VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Be right back.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: That's it for us today. Thank you all for watching. Until next week, for FACE THE NATION, I'm Margaret Brennan.
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