Full transcript of "Face the Nation with Margret Brennan," Feb. 9, 2025
On this "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- CBS News director of elections and surveys Anthony Salvanto
- Rep. Michael McCaul, Republican of Texas
- Rep. Ilhan Omar, Democrat of Minnesota
- Sen. Bill Hagerty, Republican of Tennessee
- Scott MacFarlane, Jan Crawford, Sam Vinograd and Christopher Krebs
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: President Trump continues to make good on his campaign pledges. What do Americans think of the Trump 2.0 policies and the job Mr. Trump's doing as president?
As Elon Musk and his Department of Government Efficiency squad continue their sweep through the federal agencies, President Trump says they're doing so at his insistence and that there's more to come. But that revamp is leading to confusion. And the consequences are spreading across the country and around the world.
How could the president's bureaucratic shakeup impact America's law enforcement, homeland security and intelligence capabilities? Plus, what's the impact of cutting U.S. aid to the countries that need it the most?
We will talk with Texas Republican Congressman Michael McCaul and Minnesota Democratic Congressman Ilhan Omar. Tennessee Republican Senator Bill Hagerty will join us from the Senate Republican retreat in Florida.
It's all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
We begin today with our first assessment of how President Trump and his policies are doing just three weeks into his second term. Our CBS poll finds that a majority of Americans, 53 percent, approve of the job he's doing. That's a better approval number than he ever reached during his first term in the White House.
Joining us with more is our executive director of elections and surveys, Anthony Salvanto.
Good to see you, Anthony.
What's driving this?
ANTHONY SALVANTO: I will keep it simple, Margaret. He's doing, in the eyes of the public, what he said he would do in the campaign.
There's political value in that. In fact, 70 percent of people say he's doing what he promised. That's whether they approve of him or not. Now, there's another part of this that continues over from the campaign. There were words that he was described as being tough, being energetic.
And he still is today in big majority numbers. So, as people take a look in these first few weeks, there's been a lot of activity. They're getting that general sense of governance, and that's being reflected in these early numbers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So that's perception. What about the actual policies?
ANTHONY SALVANTO: Well, let's start with the ones that are popular.
And, again, these echo a lot of what we saw in the campaign. The idea of deporting those in the country illegally continues to be popular. We saw that in the campaign. Sending troops to the U.S.-Mexico border, again, majority in favor. We'd seen that in the campaign.
For his supporters in particular, the focus on ending DEI is popular. We had seen in the campaign a lot of them thought those processes had gone too far. There are some other things in here that get more mixed reviews, I will add.
The idea of the U.S. taking over Gaza is not seen as a good idea.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Something he floated at a press conference this past week.
ANTHONY SALVANTO: He did, but it also gives you a little insight into how people are processing Donald Trump and what he does, because then, for a lot of his supporters, they say, well, that's not really his goal. That's a negotiating tactic.
And then, on tariffs, those are not as popular. Those are things that the majority – with the exception of the ones on China.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why?
ANTHONY SALVANTO: People think it will raise prices. And that's important context here too, because people are still sensitive to price increases. A lot of them report that prices haven't gone down.
Remember that Donald Trump won the election on inflation, and that was a big reason. And what we find now is two-thirds of people saying that they don't think the administration is focused enough on lowering prices. And that stands out as one of those big gaps when you talk about initial preferences, initial expectations and what's getting delivered.
That's certainly going to be something to watch.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that's interesting, because, throughout the campaign, he was abundantly clear that tariffs were something he wanted to use. And we talked quite a lot about possible impact on inflation.
I know you also polled on President Trump's work with Elon Musk and this so-called DOGE, Department of Government Efficiency.
ANTHONY SALVANTO: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We're all kind of learning what it is. What do people think of it?
ANTHONY SALVANTO: Well, exactly on that point, we're all sort of learning this, so I think this will take a while to play out.
Initially, you get very partisan responses on the role that Elon Musk should or should not play. You get a majority of Republicans saying he should have at least some influence, though it's more of the MAGA base that really wants him to have a lot, and a lot of Democrats in opposition.
Part of this is, too, the broad goals of cutting spending, of cutting foreign aid have things that have long been in the polling popular with Republicans. But in terms of the impact and approach, that may take a while for people to really see it play out.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How you do it. And we will be talking about that ahead on the program.
Anthony, thank you.
ANTHONY SALVANTO: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we turn now to Republican Congressman Mike McCaul of Texas.
Good morning. It's good to have you here.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-Texas): Good morning, Margaret. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to dig in to what has been happening, this mass confusion with USAID.
There were 30 million metric tons of food sitting at a port in Houston all week because there weren't U.S. workers to unload the food aid, food American taxpayers had already bought, food that Secretary Rubio said should be delivered, but wasn't.
How is this mass confusion increasing efficiency?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Well, if I could peel back on that a little bit, the confusion, I think, goes back to the Biden administration when they started to implement these woke policies of drag queen shows in Ecuador, when they started talking about LGBTQIA programs, like, say, in Latin American countries, how to sue Catholic governments, promoting atheism in Nepal, where you have Tibetan Buddhist monks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I saw the White House fact sheet on there. But this…
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: This is what gave the USAID a black eye.
I personally believe that USAID has a national security mission.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: If you go back to its inception in the '60s, under President Kennedy and the Cold War, it was to counter the Soviet Union. We need to return to the core mission principles.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
Well, you have been a big supporter of USAID when you were chairman of House Foreign Affairs.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have talked about the great work that it does around the world.
But back to this food aid, I mean, this isn't a theater program. This is food for starving people. How is getting it all locked up in these ports – I mean, it's the way it's being implemented that has drawn so much shock here. Do you think this is being done well?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Well, I think – so, the secretary, in response to all this – and, by the way, I – put holds on all those programs I was talking about that had nothing to do with the central core mission.
However, the secretary made waivers on humanitarian assistance and PEPFAR, which has been the most successful global health program, initiated by President Bush, by the way.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: The implementation of this is where I would urge the administration to move more expeditiously.
I just got word about 10 minutes ago at the World Food Program now. These waivers are now being implemented, that it is being executed, that food will be going out, but, to your point, about $40 million in food rotting in these warehouses in Houston, about 500,000 metric tons on ships on the sea.
The peace through food program dates back to the '50s…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: … after the Marshall Plan. It is to provide stability in fragile, unstable countries. It is to counter Russia, China and terrorism.
It is our diplomatic power.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Otherwise, we're talking about bullets, as Mattis talked about and Lindsey Graham.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, that if you don't fully fund the State Department, you have got to buy me more bullets. That's Mattis' line.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Cool.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But on how this is being done, Secretary of State Rubio keeps saying he's issuing waivers and he's getting things moving. I'm glad the World Food Program now says food is moving.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But there's a huge divide between what he's saying and then the fact that there weren't USAID workers there to actually load ships or move things. There weren't folks to process.
It seems a fundamental misunderstanding between the bosses and the operators. Is this really how it should be done? Why not review and then take action?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: And there's a debate about whether you should – there is a top-to-bottom review.
I think, after what happened under the Biden administration, it absolutely needs to be reviewed to get back to the core mission, as I talked about.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: So that is being done.
At the same time, putting a halt on all humanitarian assistance and lifesaving medicines, I think that's where Secretary Rubio issued these waivers for a reason…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: … in consultation with the president, President Trump. And it seems to me his department needs to start implementing the waivers.
Now, again, the World Food Program is doing that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, they have to be able to go back to work.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I mean, that was before the courts, if people could even go back to work to implement what he's telling them to do.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: And there is a temporary injunction on that issue.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: I would urge the State Department to put the adequate resources necessary to deliver this, because our foreign adversaries are looking at this.
Just as they laughed at the Ecuador drag shows, they're also questioning what's happening now. And I think we need to have a strong presence in destabilized nations to keep out our adversaries.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
But do you think this was done intentionally, or are people like this individual Pete Marocco, who Secretary Rubio has authorized to run this, do they just not know how the department works or how USAID works?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: I really can't speak for him. I know that he's been in charge – put in charge of the foreign assistance program.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Should he come into Congress and answer questions, since there's a hearing on USAID this week?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Well, I do think the administration has provided, by the way, notification and consultation with the Foreign Affairs Committee that I chaired. And that is required under law.
They have done that. I think, if they decide to terminate, that's a whole 'nother issue. My understanding is that they want to look at putting USAID underneath the State Department, which is not a novel concept.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: I mean, Madeleine Albright talked about this under…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: And Bill Clinton and Warren Christopher talked about this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Even Joe Biden talked about this.
And I think putting it under State makes a lot of sense to me to provide the direct supervision and oversight.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: But you know how this department works, since you were the chair for so long of the committee overseeing it.
When this Trump-appointed judge put that federal – the pause on the putting USAID workers on leave, he wrote in the opinion: "No future lawsuit could undo the physical harm that might result if USAID employees are not informed of imminent security threats occurring in the countries to which they have relocated in the course of their service to the United States."
He's saying that the messy way this rolled out put people in physical risk when they are deployed by our government to countries overseas. Did the secretary of state have any idea?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: The secretary of state issued the waivers for PEPFAR and for humanitarian both food and medicine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But people living and working in places like Syria aren't able to access computer systems and security warnings that are there.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: The – every – every president that comes in does a review.
I would argue, though, that since the secretary's issued the waivers, that it's incumbent upon his subordinates now to implement these waivers so that we don't see what could happen where people are not getting their vaccines, they're not getting the HIV treatment, there are starving people in destabilized countries.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: And then we see China and Russia.
And, quite frankly, Lindsey Graham and I did the Global Fragility Act to impact the Sahel in Africa. That is turning into a terror safe haven. You got Ebola popping up in Uganda.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: These are serious issues that, if we don't start implementing waivers, you're going to see it get worse, not better.
And I would urge the administration to do that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're striking a very different tone than Congressman Brian Mast, who was here last week. And he said there's a grift on the American people. He said PEPFAR and Americans shouldn't fund AIDS drugs for 20 million people across Africa because their governments might work with China.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: It's the best…
MARGARET BRENNAN: There's a divide in your party about this right now.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Well, it's the best – I can only speak to the program that President Bush started, and it was to save millions of lives.
That is probably one of the – been the best goodwill missions in the United States and put the best face, no pun intended, on the nation overseas with our adversaries, countering them, with these people. We're saving their lives. The best global health program ever implemented by the United States was PEPFAR. I'd hate to see that go away.
It will sunset once we achieve the mission. However, programs like that, when you look at the national security importance of USAID…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: … need to be maintained.
And I go back to why it was implemented in the first place.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On Friday night, the president ordered all foreign assistance to South Africa be halted and said we should prioritize the resettling of Afrikaner refugees. These are white South Africans.
That means they will get priority over everyone, it seems, because there's a suspension of refugee entry into the United States, including those Afghan allies who worked along the United – alongside the United States.
Are you going to try to help lift that?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Yes, I believe – I did a comprehensive investigation that the debacle of Afghanistan that the Biden administration was responsible for…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: … including leaving our Afghan partners behind. Those…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Should they get a carve-out from the Trump ban on refugees? Should the Afghans?
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: And I do believe that it was an unintended consequence that needs to be fixed.
Look, we promised them that we would protect them when they worked with our service men and women in Afghanistan. These are the interpreters, the ones who were right alongside our combat veterans. They have these Special Immigrant Visas and P-1, P-2.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: And it's my view that they should be allowed to go forward with the SIV program.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And others.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: And they have been vetted, by the way, Margaret. They have been vetted. Unlike some of the other groups they talk about, these have been vetted.
They worked with our troops to defeat the Taliban, which, unfortunately, Biden surrendered to. But it seems to me we ought to live up to our word. Otherwise, down the road, in another conflict, no one's going to trust us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Congressman McCaul, thank you.
REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MCCAUL: Thanks, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Face the Nation will be back in a minute.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to Tennessee Republican Senator Bill Hagerty, who joins us this morning from Palm Beach, Florida.
Good morning to you, Senator.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY (R-Tennessee): Good morning, Margaret. Good to be with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I have a lot to get to with you today, but I want to start with the announcement from the White House that over 65,000 employees have accepted the offer to leave their jobs with pay through September 30. This is that deferred resignation program, or buyout, as it's called.
Can you explain how putting federal workers on paid leave through September will save taxpayers money, if we're paying them not to work?
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: Margaret, eventually it will save taxpayers money.
I think what President Trump is trying to do is be humane in the process of allowing them to make plans to find other employment. But I certainly think the government is far too big, far too bloated. And we're on a path now to start to see it shrink.
This is the first step only, but we're moving in the right direction.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So does that mean the agencies won't hire replacements for these people who take the so-called buyout? Are you reducing head count?
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: I think what we will see is each agency – yes, I think what we will see, Margaret, is each agency go through a top-to-bottom review to decide exactly what they need to do to deliver on behalf of the American public.
As you know, there's been a lot of consternation and pearl-clutching about the activities of Elon Musk and his team. But their charge led by President Trump is to go in and find efficiencies, find opportunities and, frankly, deliver more of taxpayer dollars to the actual programs that are intended, less to overhead and administration.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you said, eventually, it will save money. I know you're on Appropriations Committee and you watch these things pretty closely here.
When will it save money?
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: Well, I would say certainly as soon as these people start to roll off the payroll. Again, I'm from the private sector, Margaret. My entire background has been in business.
This is the way you do it. You come in, you look at the opportunities before you. President Trump has brought a new administration. And this is not unusual to take a hard look at these programs, and also to look for opportunities to cut bloat and waste.
Look, we're $36 trillion in debt. Clearly, the American public needs…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: … to see more accountability, more visibility, more performance for their taxpayer dollars.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. And I think anyone who works in the private sector understands how layoffs work. The government is so unique, though, with laws establishing some of these agencies.
And, as you know – and we will talk about it later in the program – some of this is tied up in the courts.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Specifically, since you're on banking, the budget director announced he's notified the Federal Reserve that the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau will no longer take congressional funding because it's not necessary.
Elon Musk tweeted: "Rest in peace."
Can you tell us, did the White House inform…
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: I missed Elon Musk's tweet.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
Did the White House inform the Banking Committee that it's being dismantled? What does "CFPB, rest in peace" mean?
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: So, I have had significant conversations with Russ Vought, who is our new OMB director.
The CFPB has been out of control for some time. The way it's designed, I think, is unconstitutional. It has no oversight. It's been basically a reckless agency that's been allowed to go way beyond any mandate that I think was originally intended. So it's time to rein it in. And I'm applauding anything that we can do to bring more stability and more control to the federal government and take agencies like this back into some sort of sense of accountability and oversight.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, what does that mean? Because it's established as an agency, and there are legal protections here.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: Well, it was established as an agency that does not have the jurisdiction of the Congress.
Its funding source is separate from us. It has no accountability. This is not the type of agency I think that the founding fathers contemplated. We actually contemplated a balance of power. Yet this rogue agency has been created. And, frankly, it's been used as a tool to come in and just hammer the American private sector and pursue initiatives that certain people like Rohit Chopra might have approved or Senator Elizabeth Warren might have approved, but this is not the way the American public should be funding and supporting programs of this nature.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
So, a different government agency, USAID, and its fate is also in question. We looked at the Congressional Research Service definition here, because it was enshrined in law, USAID. It says, because Congress established it as independent within the executive branch, the president does not have the authority to abolish it. Congressional authorization would be required to abolish, move or consolidate USAID.
So, have you – or do you expect Congress to actually authorize the president to dismantle and consolidate USAID?
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: I think there's a tremendous appetite to do it, again, Margaret, because what we want to see is alignment of our programs with America's national security interest.
USAID has been out of control. I have demanded accountability from a AID. They have refused it. As an appropriator, I have asked them to be very clear about, for example, their role funding Hamas in Gaza. They would not comply. They will not tell us what they do.
Now that we start to find out some of the programs that AID has been funding, I mean, think about it, sex change operations in Guatemala, LGBTQ programs in Serbia, this is ridiculous. This is so beyond the pale.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The U.S. government does not sex change operations or fund Hamas. You know that, though. But you sit on…
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: That is not true, Margaret. I couldn't get the secretary of state. I asked him three times to tell me that we were not funding Hamas to AID. He couldn't do it.
And, frankly, what we found is that we've been funding, as American taxpayers, organizations…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you have any evidence that the United States government is terror – is funding a terrorist group?
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: Certainly, the funds that have gone to UNRWA. You saw the UNRWA members who were also Hamas members going In an attack on…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK, that's – UNRWA is not a terrorist group. UNRWA is part of the United Nations.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: UNRWA is supporting terrorist groups.
And if you look at what UNRWA has done, it's been so counter to our national interest. It's unbelievable that we would fund it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
Since you're on Foreign Relations, let me ask you specifically what's happening inside the State Department right now. A gentleman named Darren Beattie has been appointed as acting undersecretary for public diplomacy and public affairs.
He was fired from the first Trump administration after he attended a white nationalist convention. He's made a lot of inflammatory statements against women and minorities. If he couldn't work for the first Trump administration, how is he qualified to work now?
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: Margaret, I'm not familiar with Mr. Beattie or the claims that you raise.
But if we want to talk about qualifications for people serving in the administration, why not look back at the prior administration? The only qualification Tony Blinken seemed to have to be secretary of state is that you organized 51 intelligence – so-called intelligence officials to forge a letter to say that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: If we want to talk about accountability and who should be serving, let's go back and look at the last administration.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is attending a white nationalist rally appropriate – if it wasn't appropriate to attend a white nationalist rally then, is it appropriate now?
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: I don't know anything about this, Margaret. I don't know anything about this…
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. Well, the secretary of state spoke about it earlier this week. So, Secretary Rubio does know about it.
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Tariffs. President Trump said he plans, as soon as this week, new reciprocal tariffs on everybody. It sounds like he's broadening out this trade war.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you know exactly which goods or countries will be impacted in the coming days?
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: So, I talked with President Trump on Friday about this broadly, Margaret. This is a concern that he has had for some time.
As you know, I served in his previous administration and worked my heart out to get two trade agreements executed with Japan. I was the U.S. ambassador to Japan in his administration.
Here's what we're trying to deal with, and it goes all the way back to World War II and the aftermath.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: We made very favorable terms of trade with countries whose economies have been devastated in Europe and Japan.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: We should have time-limited that. We should have put some type of GDP per capita limit on it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: Because what we have now are countries that have very unfavorable and unfair terms that are fully developed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: So it's time to address this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator, I'm sorry.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: It's already begun to happen. President Trump and I talked – yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator, I'm sorry. My…
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: It's already begun to happen.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm running out of time because of the commercial break that's coming up here.
SENATOR BILL HAGERTY: OK.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So I have to leave it there. I apologize for cutting you off.
We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Coming up, we will check in with Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar from Minnesota. She's here with us in studio.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We're joined now by Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar of Minnesota.
Good to have you here.
You have spoken quite a bit this week about what USAID meant in your life, particularly when you were living in a refugee camp for four years. And USAID, you talked about, helping to keep you alive. We know this week a federal judge will come to some kind of hearing and decision perhaps on what happens to all those government workers. Are the courts the main line of defense here?
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR (D-MN): Yes. I mean, what we are witnessing is a constitutional crisis. We are seeing an executive branch that has decided that they are no longer going to abide by the Constitution, in honoring Congress' role in the creation of the agencies, in their role in deciding where money is allocated. And so the only recourse we have since our congressional leadership, the speaker will not stop the executive, is through the judiciary. And this is, you know, when you think about the checks and balances that we have, the courts are the only recourse we have at the moment.
And we have seen - and when we talk about the illegality of what the executive is doing, we have seen every single executive order that has been challenged in the courts, was found to be illegal.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: And that, I think, should give faith to the American people that our courts are working as they should, the checks and balances are working.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: What is not working is the way that the executive is behaving and the congressional leadership that is failing the American people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, some of these court cases are ongoing, so we'll have to see where - where they end up, but -
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: But the ones that have already been adjudicated, every single executive order has been halted at the moment by an order.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Many of them Republican judges who -
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: Yes. Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Who have also made that decision.
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: Trump-appointed judges.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It was interesting - it was interesting to hear Congressman McCaul indicate that when it came to breaking up an agency that was enshrined in law that maybe there is some resistance there.
Senator Hagerty, however, thought that Congress would be supportive of dismantling USAID after I read that - that description of the statute. It seems, though, that - that Democrats don't have a lot of leverage here to push this argument forward in Congress. Do you think you do?
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: Well, they don't have the numbers in order to dismantle through Congress. That's why they are going through this illegal - that's why they're going through this illegal route.
We know that USAID has support, not just with Democrats, but with Republicans. I can't see McCaul taking a vote to dismantle USAID, you know. So - so we know that the - the votes are not there to dismantle the Department of Education. We know that the votes are not there to grant security clearances for them accessing Treasury. And - and so every single process that they are going through in implementing Trump's agenda -
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: Is, at the moment, illegal. And they know they don't have the support for it in Congress. That's why they're not bringing it through Congress.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's interesting that the first place to focus is such a small portion of federal spending, to look at - at - at aid. But when you look at the popularity, Secretary Rubio has right in saying that it's getting harder to defend foreign aid because it's not popular.
We saw the Chicago Council on Global Affairs surveyed American opinions on foreign policy and they found a growing number want to reduce economic and military aid to other countries.
So, how do you convince the public that your point of view is the right one, because it - it sounds like they're sliding the other way?
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: Well, foreign aid, I think, throughout the history of - of our country has not been popular with the American people because we don't have that many conversations about what it does, how much of it - it accounts for in our budget. A lot of people hear the millions, billions, and they don't fully have a concept of what - what that actually means.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: The lives it touches. And - and how important it is both the soft power that we have as a country, how it keeps us competitive around the world, how it buys us goodwill. We - we can have the conversation. But when you just say foreign aid to - to a lot of people, they're thinking that we're sending bombs to other countries -
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: Which people like me and others oppose.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. An allegation we heard earlier in the program.
I want to ask you about something President Trump said this week alongside the Israeli prime minister. It took many by surprise.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VC)
DONALD TRUMP (President of The United States): The U.S. will take over the Gaza Strip, and we will do a job with it, too. We'll own it and be responsible for dismantling all of the dangers, unexploded bombs and other weapons on the site.
(END VC)
MARGARET BRENNAN: The president said Palestinians would be permanently removed. How do you think this is heard and understood around the world?
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: Well, that - that's just plain out ethnic cleansing and - and genocide. That's - that's what he's talking about. The - the Palestinian people will remain in Gaza. There is no support around the world for the ludicrous suggestion that - that he is making.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, he doesn't give them a choice to leave. Open the gates.
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: Yes, I'm pretty sure most of the people in - in Gaza would love to remain in their homeland and - and be where they were born.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Congresswoman, we have to leave it there for today, but I appreciate you coming in.
REPRESENTATIVE ILHAN OMAR: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll be right back with a lot more FACE THE NATION. Stay with us.
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(BEGIN VC)
ACTIVE FBI AGENT: We just have a lot of unknowns, and it feels like no one has our backs. No one's been a voice for the small people. And if we're going to go out there and risk our lives, the least you could do is protect our, you know, safety and our families.
(END VC)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That was an active FBI agent who spoke with CBS's Scott Macfarlane last week. The agent asked for anonymity due to safety concerns, including the risk that private information about the individual could be made public, a practice known as doxxing.
For more on that interview and the impact of the Trump administration's bureaucratic overhaul is Justice Department correspondent Scott Macfarlane. We're also joined by chief legal correspondent Jan Crawford, homeland security contributor Samantha Vinograd, and cybersecurity expert and analyst Chris Krebs.
It's good to have you all here.
And even just trying to whittle this down to exactly what to ask you was hard because there has been so much happening.
Scott, let's talk on the very immediate thing that was raised in that interview, physical security. You obtained an email from the acting FBI director that said he has concerns for the safety of personnel, as well as risks to their families.
What exactly does he have in mind, and what's being done to protect them?
SCOTT MACFARLANE: Let's take a moment to underscore the significance of that message. These are people who chase terrorists for a living. And there's an internal email they're worried about, a unique form of retribution at this moment. That gives you an indication the turmoil the FBI is in at this moment.
There are two types of retribution these agents are concerned about. First of all, as you mentioned, the doxxing, that people are going to come after them and they're concerned that the January 6th rioters, now lionized, now galvanized, or their supporters and sympathizers will come after the agents who are responsible for nearly 1,600 arrests.
But more fundamentally, and perhaps more immediately, they're worried about retribution for doing their jobs, professional retribution, that there will be a purge, firings, forced resignations that are going to gut America's joint terror task force, child predator task forces and violent crime units.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And just to be clear, FBI agents don't get to pick what assignments they get, just like the United States military does not get to pick it.
SCOTT MACFARLANE: And this was not a Washington, D.C., investigation. This involved every field office of the FBI nationwide. They were assigned in communities from California to Connecticut.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sam, when you look at some of the national security implications here, it's not just the domestic law enforcement. The CIA offered a different early retirement and resignation option. The CIA director said if an individual works on a high-priority issue or has a specific language skill, they can't take the so-called buyout we've been talking about earlier in the program. They are trying to target these cutbacks in specific ways. Can you actually really do that and - and is this a good idea?
SAMANTHA VINOGRAD: Well, I think it depends the subjectivity of how you define national security. I would argue that all of the CIA count as a critical national security position.
But more broadly, Margaret, I worked for three presidents. They all had different approaches to the federal workforce. What concerns me with this administration's rapid elimination approach is that it creates a wildly uneven playing field with our adversaries.
The KGB is not shedding agents. The Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs is not losing diplomats. What we have in this moment is tens of thousands of personnel taking the buyout, leaving their jobs. We have countless others on leave. We have others who are worried about taking certain assignments because of fear of retribution, or spending hours talking to family and lawyers about their professional options while being expected to do their day job.
We don't have all hands on deck in a very dynamic threat environment. And longer term, I am concerned what this will do for recruitment to the federal government and redundancy. It takes years to train and equip a spy. It takes years to train an aid worker. So, coming back from the talent cuts that we're seeing could have a generational impact.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And that - the comparison was made early in the program, oh, well, in the private sectors they do buyout. Even in the private sector people can say, hey, we lost some institutional knowledge or expertise here. You're saying American government, the taxpayer invested in that expertise and that's what's being lost here.
SAMANTHA VINOGRAD: And there's no quick fix switch to turn it back on. It will be a longer term investment in getting talent back onto the field.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Chris, you know, in trying to whittle down who this applies to, who it doesn't, CBS has obtained an internal communication given out at homeland security, employees were told anyone working for Customs and Border Patrol can't take the buyout. ICE, other immigration related departments, TSA you can't, FEMA, parts of it at least you can't. And the agency you used to run, CISA, was singled out.
But then we're seeing conflicting reports that say very different things about parts of that agency being affected and dismantled. Cybersecurity is the new frontier for warfare, right?
CHRIS KREBS: Absolutely. Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So - so, what does this mean?
CHRIS KREBS: Well, it's not clear, right? Let - let's also step back a minute and recognize that President Trump, in his first administration, in 2018, established CISA, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Which is when you worked for -
CHRIS KREBS: That's what it - that's the agency I ran.
And to your point the threat landscape it as active and dynamic as ever. And it's not as if we're, all of a sudden unplugging systems today that we weren't doing two to three months ago. It's becoming more digitized, more connected. And the opportunity space for the bad guys is also increasing. Even during the campaign the vice president's phone was accessed by Chinese threat actors. So, we have this opportunity right now to continue to invest in our cybersecurity defenses.
So, the conversations I've had with CISA personnel is that they're going to hang on because the public service mission is so important to many of these individuals it could be making millions in the cybersecurity industry, in the private sector. They are committed to getting through this, to continuing to protect the American people, the American networks, the federal - the federal government. That's the opportunity.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Secretary Noem said CISA has gotten far off mission. How was that received?
CHRIS KREBS: Well, I think to Sam's point, you know, every administration has a set of - policies and priorities that they - they go in, they review, they sometimes do it rapidly, sometimes do it slowly, at the beginning of the Biden administration, Scott, as we were talking about, the - they took down or disassembled the Department of Justice China Task Force. China is obviously a huge threat.
There are elements of CISA, the elections security mission specifically, that was clearly spelled out in Project 2025 as a distraction, as something that's not core. And I will say that having worked with those people, they're American patriots. They are public servants. My hope is that as the administrative review process goes through, that they are provided opportunities to work elsewhere because they are - they're effective and there are other things that we have to continue to be doing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to drill down more, but I - come back with everything these days, Jan, to the fundamental questions, is this legal? As our legal expert, you know, some of these buyouts are - are tied up in court. Is it legal?
JAN CRAWFORD: Right. And we're going to have a hearing this week, tomorrow, on whether or not these pauses can remain. I think the judge is going to keep this pause in place, is kind of putting it on hold, even though this is one of the weaker of all the lawsuits that's been filed against these many executive orders.
The argument is that Trump just went about this the wrong way. So, that's why it's different than when Bill Clinton cut over 200,000 jobs from the federal government when he was in office. He involved Congress.
And that's a common theme with all of these lawsuits. And there are many. I mean, dozens and dozens from coast to coast that these executive orders, and doing these executive orders, Trump did it unilaterally. That - and he cannot do that. Like, he has to involve Congress. And he's usurping Congress' role.
So, whatever the judge does in - in this case on the buyouts, you know, I think it does raise one interesting issue when you're talking about the impact on people and how some of these orders, as you guys were discussing, what about those 65,000 people who say they want those?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
JAN CRAWFORD: They want to do this. They may have a claim now. They're relying on this. So, that raises a whole nother legal issue if these buyouts cannot proceed.
So, all of this is going to take some time to sort out. The courts right now are definitely putting up, you know, yellow to red lights on a lot of these executive orders.
But, you know, like our polling is showing, like I - this, to me, regardless of whether these end up being legal losses, losses in the courts, they're political wins. It's - it's a victory for Trump because he's showing that he's doing, as our polling reflects, what he promised in the campaign.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
JAN CRAWFORD: And so, you know, regardless of how many of these end up surviving at the end of the day -
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
JAN CRAWFORD: Trump can still say this was a win for him politically.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. And we keep coming back to that, but it's not just what you do it's how you do it. And that's what I think is so illuminating to hear from you all from inside the agencies.
Scott, I want to come back to you because the attorney general, Bondi, dissolved an FBI task force that worked to uncover covert efforts by Russia, China, Iran and others to manipulate voters. There seems to be an effort to refocus the Justice Department. What's that focus?
SCOTT MACFARLANE: Yes, there were some first-day orders when Pam Bondi arrived at main justice this week, including repurposing this foreign influence task force the FBI has, trying to shepherd its resources more towards drug cartels versus the ongoing kinetic foreign influence campaigns, which have been part of our country for some time now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That Chris was mentioning, right.
SCOTT MACFARLANE: That - that Chris knows quite well.
I think their concern though is broader than just that task force. If there is a gutting of FBI personnel, either by giving them new jobs that aren't what they're there for or firing them, you can't just replace an FBI agent tomorrow.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SCOTT MACFARLANE: It takes many months of training, background checks, polygraphs, they go to Quantico. It takes a long time to deploy, years to get them up to speed. And for a supervisor we're told it takes five to seven years to get somebody in place. That's something that goes beyond the Trump term.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Jan, on the legal question, Democrats are throwing around constitutional crisis as a phrase.
JAN CRAWFORD: I don't see that yet. I mean so far the president is not ignoring judicial orders.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So far.
JAN CRAWFORD: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Two weeks in.
JAN CRAWFORD: And they're appealing them. They're, you know, so I -
MARGARET BRENNAN: On the - on the congressional consent portion, though, we're not - you did hear from - from Congressman McCaul that, well, if it's in statute, that's another matter. You have to at least consult with Congress before you destroy an agency or dismantle it.
JAN CRAWFORD: Right. And all of these executive orders raise similar legal issues, but they're different because they depend on what the law at issue actually says. So, the USAID, you know, trying to put those employees that you were talking about on administrative leave, I think there's about 3,000 of them, and then kind of the force evacuation from their host countries, a very highly regarded federal district court judge here in D.C., a Trump appointees, put that on hold.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
JAN CRAWFORD: And pointed to a specific federal law that says that he has to consult Congress before you're going to dismantle or really kind of reorganize USAID.
So, that one, that's a - that's a pretty strong lawsuit right there. That's a strong one. But that judge also upheld part of Secretary Rubio's order that would freeze future funding of USAID projects. So, (INAUDIBLE).
MARGARET BRENNAN: Chris, quickly, on the national security questions of having these DOGE employees, which the White House says have security clearances and are only looking inside systems, read only, is there risk?
CHRIS KREBS: Well, I - theoretically there are various risks associated with access to systems. You - you could have sensitive information, proprietary information. You could be plugging in systems that aren't necessarily clean or haven't gone through the normal protocols for access to these government systems. You could also see some of these folks getting targeted by Chinese or Russian actors -
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
CHRIS KREBS: For compromise, for extortion and exploitation. But the real - I, you know, the opportunity that I'm looking for out of DOGE specifically is to radically transform government IT. We have to do it. It's been too long.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. And we'll continue to track that.
Chris Krebs, thank you, all of you.
We'll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: When the U.S. Agency for International Development sends assistance to countries around the world, the material is stamped with the agency's logo, and its motto, "from the American people," so the recipients of our assistance know exactly who sent it. Today, the future of the agency is very much in doubt.
(BEGIN VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN (voice over): President John F. Kennedy created USAID in 1961 as a way to exert American strength.
JOHN F. KENNEDY (Former U.S. President): The people who are opposed to aid should realize that this is a very powerful source of strength for us.
MARGARET BRENNAN (voice over): Sixty-four years later, Elon Musk called those public servants criminals and said USAID must die.
President Trump tasked him to go to work.
DONALD TRUMP (President of The United States): Look at all the fraud that he's found in this USAID. It's a disaster what the people - radical left lunatics. They have things that nobody would have even believed.
MARGARET BRENNAN (voice over): On Friday the USAID signs were removed from outside the building named after President Ronald Reagan, who fiercely fought for foreign aid.
RONALD REAGAN (Former U.S. President): We aren't buying friends, we're helping friends.
MARGARET BRENNAN (voice over): We spoke with a ten-year veteran of USAID, who asked to stay anonymous out of fear for their family members' safety.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are people motivated by politics where you work?
USAID WORKER: Civil servants are, at their core, sworn to uphold the rules of our government, of our Constitution, and to serve each incoming administration. My personal politics don't play a role in us delivering small food packets to kids in Sudan that are literally hours away from dying.
MARGARET BRENNAN (voice over): A federal court will decide whether it is legal for a president to unilaterally dismantle an agency enshrined in law by Congress.
Yet last week half a million metric tons of food aid sat waiting in U.S. ports with no workers able to unload or deliver it, complicating Secretary of State Marco Rubio's ability to unfreeze a few projects, like feeding the starving in Sudan, and giving medication to AIDS patients.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think there is a chance that these people with DOGE are doing what Donald Trump has said, the president of the United States has said they're increasing efficiency?
USAID WORKER: No, I don't. You know, I respect our new secretary of state. And when he took office, he said that he was going to do everything in his power to align U.S. foreign policy with making Americans stronger, safer and more prosperous. I can tell you that every individual at USAID welcomes that conversation and welcomes that challenge, including myself.
MARGARET BRENNAN (voice over): It isn't clear why this sliver of spending, less than 1 percent of the federal government, is the first focus of this so-called efficiency project, but it feels like a demolition, perhaps a preview of the future for other public servants.
USAID WORKER: Please pay attention to USAID. This might not affect you right now, but I it will tomorrow.
(END VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's it for us today. Thank you all for watching. Until next week. For FACE THE NATION, I'm Margaret Brennan.
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