What a seminal survey tells us about the views of Arab youth

In this episode of "Intelligence Matters," host Michael Morell speaks with Sunil John, a leading public relations executive in the Middle East and the driving force behind the Arab Youth Survey, a seminal piece of public opinion research on the views of the largest demographic group in the region. John explains how the survey is administered – in person and across 17 countries – and how it has for years provided an incisive and nuanced look at the thinking of the more than two hundred million young Arabs living and working in the Middle East. John tells Morell how perceptions of the United States have evolved in recent years, explains the "Trump effect" on the views of young Arabs, and addresses what he says are important opportunities for the Biden administration to pursue.  

HIGHLIGHTS 

On the broad findings of the Arab Youth Survey: "60 percent of the population of the Arab world are below the age of 30. You're looking at two hundred million young Arabs. That is one of the youngest populations and regions in the world… [W]hat the survey tells you is a completely different story. It's a story of hope, is the story of the real issues. It's a story that forces governments to look at this demographic and direct them in terms of the policies that it needs to make." 

Nuance in religious views among Arab youth: "[H]ere is a young cohort of young people who are saying, 'Yes, you know, religion defines me, but I want a public society where… one looks at proper governance, one looks at efficiency, looks at policy, and addresses the key issues of good quality education and jobs.' That is a quite surprising finding." 

The "Trump effect" and opportunities for the Biden administration: "Nearly 63 percent of the young people saw the U.S. as a favorable ally in 2016. That was the last year of the Obama administration. And then came Trump and in 2020 enacted the Muslim ban. And a lot of the policies that happened -- that 63 percent dropped to nearly 35, which was the lowest point in the 12 years that we have seen in terms of how the Arab youth see the U.S. and that's what, you know, the drop from 63 to 35 in 2018 is what we call the Trump effect." […] 

"However, over the last two years, it's been picking up in 2020. Young people, young Arabs look at the U.S., 56 percent of them look at the US as an ally. So that's been a move up. And I think a lot of young people are looking at the Biden administration to look at the region differently. And I think there's a lot of hope that that the US will play a much more engaging role in the region because that's the aspiration of young people." 

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INTELLIGENCE MATTERS - SUNIL JOHN

PRODUCER: OLIVIA GAZIS

MICHAEL MORELL: Sunil, welcome to Intelligence Matters. Thank you for joining us all the way from Dubai.

SUNIL JOHN: Such a pleasure to talk to you, Michael. It's indeed a real honor to be able to talk to you about what's happening in this region and our wonderful Arab Youth Survey.

MICHAEL MORELL: Sunil, let me start by telling my listeners that I have for a number of years been following the annual survey of Arab youth that you just mentioned, and that while I've always found the survey results to be interesting, I found this year's survey to be especially so. So I asked you, Sunil, whose organization produces a survey, to join me on the show here to talk about it. And we're very, very lucky to have you with us. Sunil, maybe the place to start is let me ask you to tell us a little bit about yourself and the different roles that you play.

SUNIL JOHN: Thank you, Michael. Just very quickly, I'm the president for the Middle East, for BCW, which is Burson Cohn & Wolf, which is a WPP company headquartered in New York. It's a top three global PR consultancy. And I'm the president on the global board of the firm. And I cover what is known as the Middle East and North Africa markets.

I originally come from India, but Dubai has been my home for the last 25 years and I've been taking care of my company's business in this region. As you know, Michael what an amazing country. It's just a population of 10 million people. But there are nearly 200 nationalities that live and work in this in this amazing land.

And you'll be interested to know that over fifty thousand Americans live in the UAE as well. So the city of Dubai, which is an enterprising city which has no oil - unlike most people think that this is an oil-driven economy. The city of Dubai has no oil, but it has enterprise. And it created that platform for me who came from all the way from Mumbai in India to create my own firm, which I started after working in two other firms in the year 2000. So it's been 20 years since I started the firm called Asda, which is an Arabic word, which means "echo." So we echo the messages of our clients in the marketplace. And then in 2008, WPP acquired a majority stake in my firm and from a small firm of six people and one office in Dubai, we were at that time, one hundred and sixty people with eight fully wholly owned offices covering the vast region of the Middle East and North Africa region. And that's a little bit about me.

MICHAEL MORELL: Sunil, can you tell us a little bit about the the the annual youth survey? How did it get started? Why did it get started? What's kept it going for, what, 12 years now?

SUNIL JOHN: Twelve years, exactly, Michael, a lot. But 12 interesting years because this region's gone through such dramatic upheavals during those 12 years. It was way back in 2008 when we looked at the Arab world as a firm and said, 'What is it that makes this region so important to the rest of the world?"
I mean, it's, of course, important and it's often very important for news channels because of the conflicts that kind of define this region. I don't think the region ever disappoints CNN or BBC by providing information or the updates on conflicts.

But there's another nuanced knowledge about the region, which is when you really look deep into the region, you see that the demographics of the region distinguishes it unbelievably, unbelievably. You know, 60 percent percent of the population of the Arab world are below the age of 30. You're looking at two hundred million young Arabs. That is one of the youngest populations and regions in the world.

So when we looked at that way back in 2008, we said, "What do governments, private sector, multinational companies know about this large demographic?" And the truth was very little. This region is so data-poor, Michael, you will be surprised. And that's why we said, let's do a thought leadership initiative. Let's go and talk to these young men and women in this age group of 18 to 24.

In the last survey, in the 12th survey, which we did in 2020, we covered 17 Arab countries. And let's talk to them about what they think about their past, their current and their future. So literally, we went and found out what about the young Arabs, the two hundred million people, what they kind of explore, their hearts and minds. And what the survey tells you is a completely different story. It's a story of hope, is the story of the real issues. It's a story that forces governments to look at this demographic and and direct them in terms of the policies that it needs to make.

And all of this survey, by the way, is uploaded on our website, arabyouthcursey.com, and it is entirely funded by us. So there are, we don't think, any sponsorship or funds from any government or any organization because we wanted to protect its independence. And that's something we have we have actually preserved all these 12 years.

But when I was talking about the first surveys, 2008 and 2009, and we asked young Arabs, 'What is your biggest desire? And in 2008, and 9 and 10, in fact, before the Arab Spring, the number one desire of the young people had was to live in a democracy. It's all there that the data lays out. And if anybody looked at the survey at that time - and by the way, in the beginning years, nobody took our survey seriously, neither the regional governments nor countries across the world. But if anybody was looking at those findings, they could see the Arab Spring happening. That is the brilliance of data.

And then when it happened in 2011, we had a special briefing for all of the Arab ambassadors in Washington, D.C. And our firm actually did a private in-camera briefing. The room was full, Michael, because everybody wanted to know what of these young people see, how does it impact the government? Because that was an epochal change to where they were. You know, there were leaders that had fallen, whether it's Hosni Mubarak or Moammar Gadhafi, President Saleh or any of the other leaders to change because of the protests. And that's the value of the Arab youth survey that we bring every year. And 2020 was no exception with findings that have been dramatic.

MICHAEL MORELL: So, Sunil, in terms of the latest survey, can you give us the details? You said 18 to 24, 17 countries. What do those 17 countries encompass geographically? How many folks were surveyed and over what period of time?

SUNIL JOHN: So first of all, 17 countries is a vast number of countries, but we actually break them out down into three very distinct regions. So you have the oil-driven economies of the Gulf. So you have Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman. So those are very distinct. They are economies that are large in size and that is much more wealthy in these countries. Then you have the conflict-ridden, what I call Levantine countries of Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Syria and the Palestinian Authority.

So that's another group of countries that are put together. And then you have the populous North African countries of Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya. Again, some parts of it as well see this amount of conflict. So we actually distinguish the findings in these three distinct regions - all part of the Arab world we go and talk to, this year in 2020.

We did the survey in two parts. Remember, Michael, this is a pandemic. And every year we go out into the field in the months of January and March. And at that time we spoke to 3,400 young Arabs in that age group, all face to face interviews. These are not online interviews. And that gives it so much more dependence in terms of what we capture. That and these surveys are done by our sister firm, PSB, which is, as you know, the polling firm based out of New York, which is famous for all the polling work they've done for President Clinton and Tony Blair and of course, for Prime Minister Modi in in India as well.

So they actually conduct the polling and then we work with them to analyse the results. However, after we did the first phase of the polling and we saw the results, the pandemic suddenly broke through in the region until March. It hadn't really affected the region. And we said, 'You know, we can't come out with the findings until we do a bit of a kind of a post COVID, during-COVID survey to see if that if perceptions have changed." So we've been back into the field and did 600 interviews in about in six countries. So the survey this year has captured about 4,000 interviews with young people, as you said, in the age group, 18 to 20 for 50 percent male, 50 percent female.

And those are the results that we came out with in October. So it took us a little time last year, but we spent a little more time to make sure that the findings are kind of recalibrated and retested to make sure that those findings reflect the facts on the ground. In fact, we were the first survey to go into the Arab world to look at the impact of COVID on young people and there are some interesting findings.
MICHAEL MORELL:
So, Sunil, walk us through what you consider to be the top findings, the most interesting findings of the latest survey.
SUNIL JOHN:
I think this year, Michael, that was the top finding really that surprised us was the finding of on migration, the finding that nearly half of young Arabs across these this vast land want to migrate out of their home countries. Now, that is a very shocking - little over 40 percent when you have your young population having lost hope in their in their countries and want to migrate - That is a huge red flag for governments, not only for governments in the region, but a huge red flag for the foreign countries where these people want to go. The pressure on the border in Europe is fairly well known.

And how did that finding happen? Because there are three things connected with this. In 2019, if you remember, Michael, there were a huge number of protests in countries such as Lebanon, Algeria, Sudan and Iraq. And these are young Arabs going on to the streets and protesting against the lack of opportunities and youth having not enough employment. As you know, the Arab world has the highest youth unemployment rate in the world according to the World Bank, nearly 30 percent. And that created a huge amount of anxiety and pressure; then the economies had its own pressures. And then it resulted in a change in leadership in all of these four countries.

So we went out there and said, 'Let's find out what these young people in these countries, as well as the rest of the Arab world, feel about protests.' And what we found out was these young people said, 'Yes, we support the protests and we believe protests will bring change.' It was almost described as Arab Spring 2.0, almost a new version of that. But the real reason why these young people went onto the streets is because they were frustrated with government corruption and corruption that stopped opportunity reaching these young people. And when there is this pressure of no jobs and an increasing government corruption, what do young people do? And that's where the finding on migration really, really surprised us.

MICHAEL MORELL: I was just going to ask if that if that finding is consistent across the three groups of countries that you talked about earlier.

SUNIL JOHN: That is very much in in the North African and Levantine countries, as we know. The highest amount of propensity to emigrate is from Lebanon. Nearly 77 percent of all Lebanese youth wanted to emigrate. Libya: 69 percent. Yemen, 66 percent. Iraq, 65 percent.

Those are the top four countries that people want to emigrate. And not surprising, Michael, because those are the countries with the highest amount of conflict and pressure on the countries. But yes, Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Sudan, all of those are over 50 percent.

And some are the lowest. I mean, in the UAE, for example, just under three percent of the people want to emigrate. In Saudi Arabia, just six percent. Oman, about 12. So similarly, so, the Gulf countries do not have the pressure of immigration. It's more in the conflict-ridden countries of North Africa as well as the Gulf.

MICHAEL MORELL: So what else in terms of key findings?

SUNIL JOHN: I think the second finding that really was important, and especially for your audience to know, is that what defines young people and their personal identity and what we found, and this is consistent over the last two years, is that religion is an important factor, that it's central to the personal identity of young Arabs, more so than family or even nationality.

But these young people, when further probed on the subject, we found that while religion is important for their personal identity, they do not wish religion to play a big role in society. They want a diminished role for religion in public and they want the religious institutions to reform. And that is in many ways a nuanced finding of how young people see the future because religion dominates society. And here is a young cohort of young people who are saying, 'Yes, you know, religion defines me, but I want a public society where, you know, where one looks at proper governance, one looks at efficiency, looks at policy, and addresses the key issues of good quality education and jobs.' That is a quite surprising finding. And I think that's a positive finding in terms of how young people have a modern outlook towards their future.

Another finding is about gender rights or gender opportunity. And here is a surprising one, because, you know, most Western media defines has the stereotype of women being subjugated or not having enough rights. But when we went and spoke to these young - as you know, the sample is 50 percent female. And we asked these people, how do they see in terms of their gender rights? And nearly 70 percent of the young women said we have equal and in some parts more rights than men, than their menfolk, and they have equal access to good quality education and jobs.

That's that really surprised us this year in terms of how young women are looking at their future. So you see some of the government policies coming to actual impact on the ground where young young women are seeing more opportunity for themselves. They're getting into the workforce. And we see that as a as a big as a big positive in the findings as well.

MICHAEL MORELL: Sunil, on the on the gender question, does that differ sharply by the three groups of countries you talked about?

SUNIL JOHN: Actually, surprisingly not when you look at both the Gulf, the Levantine countries, as well as North Africa, you see young women seeing equal opportunity across areas. And this is one of the best findings, if you look at it. Seventy one percent in the in the Gulf, young women in the Gulf, felt that they have equal opportunity. Another 62 percent in North Africa and another 60 percent in the Levant. So clearly, I think that that is one finding that is consistent across the three groups of countries.
MICHAEL MORELL:
Sunil, are there any other key findings you want to highlight?
SUNIL JOHN:
You know, I'm sure you're interested in this, Michael, which is on foreign affairs, and I think the three - every year we ask them, which countries do young people look at in terms of enemies and allies?
And this is quite a dramatic change because from, as you know, historically, you know, the the center of power has always been, you know, Cairo and Damascus and Baghdad in many ways. But that has changed because the the three rising powers, according to Arab youth, and that's the Arab and the non-Arab countries, first ranked is Saudi Arabia, then comes UAE, and the third is the United States of America. The US is seen among KSA, Saudi Arabia, and UAE as the three rising powers. And that is some very nuanced findings of how young people see the United States as an important ally in their future.
And we could probably discuss that even more, especially with regards to how things have changed, especially with what I call the Trump effect and its impact on the region and how young people see the United States through the lens of foreign policy and how they very intelligently look at the United States through what's called the soft power lens, through the view through Hollywood and Netflix. You see very distinguished views of these young people on how they see the US. And that's such an interesting finding and which I'd like to talk to you more about.

MICHAEL MORELL: So so can you talk a little bit more about that? Can you talk about this so-called Trump effect?

 SUNIL JOHN: You know, when we looked at the US, Arab youth see the US as an ally. There was a big positive. Nearly 63 percent of the young people saw the US as a favorable ally in 2016. That was the last year of the Obama administration. And then came Trump and in 2020 enacted the Muslim ban. And a lot of the policies that happened -- that 63 percent dropped to nearly 35, which was the lowest point in the 12 years that we have seen in terms of how the Arab youth see the US and that's what, you know, the drop from 63 to 35 in 2018 is what we call the Trump effect.

However, over the last two years, it's been picking up in 2020. Young people, young Arabs look at the US, 56 percent of them look at the US as an ally. So that's been a move up. And I think a lot of young people are looking at the Biden administration to look at the region differently. And I think there's a lot of hope that that the US will play a much more engaging role in the region because that's the aspiration of young people.

But when we asked the same young people who saw who looked at the US in terms of the, you know, the ally and adversary role, at the same time, we asked the question, 'Which is the country they see as a model nation, a nation that their own countries should emulate?' Of course, the first nation is the United Arab Emirates; the UAE is seen as a modern nation. It's almost a city on the hill, but the second most popular country is the US.

So when you look at it, that is an aspirational value of brand, the United States, in the minds of young people. They see and they understand the values of what you stand for. And that is this huge push to know more about the country, to understand to know the American way of life as a land of opportunity. And they want their own country to emulate what the US has done. The second most favorite country of Arab youth after the UAE is the US. And I think that is quite, you know - I look at this cohort of young people, you know, as a very intelligent set of people who understand and nuance their perceptions by what they see. And that is is quite an interesting finding.

MICHAEL MORELL: So how did they think about China in that allies / enemies context?

SUNIL JOHN: So this is something they've been looking at, as you know, for several years. And in terms of foreign policy, it's been going up and down. And to just give you - I'm just looking up the actual numbers on that.

China and Russia, Turkey have all emerged as powers that are hungry to replace the US, especially after that disengagement policy. And I think that's something that the United States needs to look at very, very closely, because when you look at it, China is seen by 73 percent as an ally. Russia is seen at 71 percent as an ally, Turkey by 60 percent, and then we come to the United States at 56 percent. So as you can see, there is a vacuum that has been created, especially with the disengagement policy over the last several years.

And that has created the opportunity for several of these countries, especially China, Russia, Turkey, and Iran as well, to be able to play a role. Iran has a very strong relationship with certain parts, especially in the Levant and in Yemen as well. So you can see that it's a very dynamic situation.

But, however, I think, you know, as I said, more and more the Arab world is turning to its own in terms of its allies. So if you look at its two biggest allies are, you know, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, and that's where the center of foreign policy power is today. And that has dramatically changed from five, six, 10 years ago.

MICHAEL MORELL: What's attractive about the UAE as a governance model to these young people?

SUNIL JOHN: We asked them, 'Why do they choose the UAE as a model nation?' And there are four reasons that they have picked, and those are safe and secure. And this is, I mean, the region, especially the conflict zone, has been very unstable. And within that, the UAE has been a very peaceful zone, almost, you know, a safe zone for a lot of people. Safety and security, a wide range of work opportunities, of course, general salary packages, as you know, in the UAE, there's tax free salaries, Michael, you know that, and a growing economy. So those are the reasons why they chose the UAE as a model nation, as a place where they'd like to live and they want their own own countries to emulate. And I think that has been consistent for the last nine years, ever since we introduced the question in 2012.

And the US has remained the second choice over the last six years or so. So that is that aspirational value of the US as well, that holds a great amount of traction in the minds of young Arabs here.

MICHAEL MORELL: So, Sunil, when I look at the totality of the findings, the single word that jumps out to me is pragmatism. Can you just react to that?

SUNIL JOHN: Absolutely. I think as I said earlier, Michael, that when we asked young people in the early years, the survey in 2008, 9 and 10, 'What is their biggest desire?' And they said that their biggest desire is to live in a democracy. And then came the Arab Spring in 2011. And then there was this huge euphoria of the revolution that we called the Tahrir Square.

And then over the years, about five, six years ago, that kind of ebbed with the change not happening up to the expectation. So these young people almost kind of focused on the here and now. The the young people became more practical with what they have to do with their lives. They were focused on getting a good education. They were focused on getting jobs. And those job choices have changed dramatically over the last five, six years.

So you see a very pragmatic, intelligent group of people -- for example, 90 percent, as I said in 2008, looked at democracy as very important. But in 2020, we asked them, 51 percent of these same young people in the Arab countries said that democracy, as defined by the Western world, will never work in the Middle East.

So, you know, they are becoming more practical. They are focusing on the main issues of what governments should be focused on, which is about having good quality governance to be able to create great quality education so that the young people are ready for the jobs of the future. They feel they missed out and of course, to be able to create the right kind of jobs.

And if you look at it, Michael, you know, when we looked at 12 years ago, the majority of the of jobs were coming in the government sector. The government was providing all that the young people needed. And young people prefer to work in a cushy government job. But government is maxed out. How many more jobs can they create? So, you know, I think more of the government policies is to increase the private sector, to create more jobs. And now there is a whole new movement towards focusing on young people starting their own businesses. So the spirit of entrepreneurism has really emerged over the last four or five years. You can see centers of technology.

There are these Big Unicorn brands like Karim that Uber has taken over; a brand like Souq.com that Amazon has taken over. These are unicorns that have come and emerge from this region. There are there you know, there is Dubai startup called Starzplay, which is a streaming video on demand service, which operates across the MENA markets. And they are bigger than Netflix. And you have another music streaming service called Anghami, which is bigger than Spotify. So there's a lot of technology startups and there's this whole new movement of young people looking at creating their own companies and and looking at private sector jobs. So things have changed dramatically.

Yet, you know, the region needs to create a hundred million new jobs. And the problem is that there are more young people coming into the workforce and the pressure is not stopping. It's becoming even bigger and the government has to do more. You know, whatever you say about the Arab Spring, that particular movement, it's the 10th anniversary of the Arab Spring, actually in 2018, 2021. That movement has dramatically changed how government sees how they run.

They started speaking to their citizens. They started looking at more policy. And you have this whole new movement of the funds, especially in the Gulf, focused on domestic investments and focused on creating jobs, on encouraging the economic movement. The small and medium enterprise sector they're looking at, pivoting from an international investment policy to actually focusing on more domestic industry, on making the economies more diversified.

You know, the governments are very clear about how climate change is going to make sure that a hydrocarbon focused economies do not have much of a future in the next 20, 30 years. And they need to pivot to an economy that is decarbonised, that is much more in a net zero environment that will be going into. And that's where governments are pivoting to new policies, diversifying their economies, focused on infrastructure and creating more jobs for young people.

MICHAEL MORELL: So, Sunil, I take it from everything you've said and from the tone of your voice and actually the excitement in your voice, that these results make you hopeful for the future of the region.

SUNIL JOHN: Absolutely, there are a couple of things that that define that view, Michael.
And if I may, one is, of course, you're such a keen observer of the region. You know this region; I've read your books and you understand this, but the big conflict zones - and there are four of them, Syria, Libya, Iraq and Yemen.

And when you look at what's happening in those conflict zones, there are many of the actors in that, including the foreign powers, they are veering towards coming to the table for talks to be able to de-escalate those conflicts.

The huge dynamic of the Abraham Accords that the UAE and Bahrain signed with Israel and the United States has changed the entire dynamic of foreign policy in this region. And I have no doubt - and I think the new Secretary of State, Blinken, actually in his presentation to the Senate, did actually say that that policy would continue, besides, of course, looking at the two state policy with the focus on Palestine as well.
But the Abraham Accords has deescalated a lot of the old conflicts. And, you know, me living in Dubai in the UAE, you can see how things have changed so fast and so dramatically. You see Israeli businesses now investing so many kosher restaurants opening in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. You're seeing a whole set of tourists coming in. Of course, with the recent rise in COVID, there's been a little bit of a lull, but I can see a huge amount of energy here.

And with more and more countries getting into that, that is a new dynamic in foreign policy. And I think that is a big positive development.

Besides that, of course, more young people are seeing the world not through the eyes of a government or state driven media, but they are seeing the world through social media. The social media revolution has provided a view to these young people, which has dramatically changed their view of what they need and what they want and the government. And it puts tremendous amount of pressure for governments to perform because they see what's happening across the world. Their ambitions and their aspirations have grown dramatically, and the pressure on government to deliver is unbelievably huge.

And that's why all of these things are changing. In fact, you'll be surprised, Michael. You know, Twitter and Snapchat, for example, have some of their highest per capita usage here in the region, especially in in countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE and other countries. So that social media is a big factor. I think government corruption, as our finding said, is a massive factor that the young people want the governments to tackle.

And when they say that, all they're asking for is more opportunity, and that's as simple as it is. I think government needs to fix that problem. And that's what they're focused on.

MICHAEL MORELL: I was just going to say, I think that that what this means for the United States is extraordinarily important and it has to start with a better understanding of the region, because most Americans and quite frankly, even many policymakers think of the region in terms of the conflict zones. Right. And what you're saying is there's so much more going on here, and much of it positive. And if other nations, including the United States, don't see that, if they miss it, they're going to miss a huge opportunity.

SUNIL JOHN: Totally agree, Michael. I think it's, you know, the young people and the region look at the United States as an important ally. There's been traditional links. I think the policy of disengagement has not played well for the United States. This is an important part of the world. You know, the Arab world, as you know, Michael, is 400 million people across these 22 nations. Yes, it's known for its conflicts. But now, as you know, it's known for its young people.

But also it's a region where three of the biggest religions in the world were born. You know, Islam, Christianity and Judaism was born in this region. There is a vast amount of history here. And the young people are dramatically changing this region. The US has an important objective to be able to look at this region with a different lens, to be able to build its lasting links based on its soft power, on its ability to inspire young people, you know, as to be able to understand American values. And I think that's where that is a huge opportunity which the United States should never miss.

MICHAEL MORELL: Sunil, one more time. How can people find the survey?

SUNIL JOHN: All you have to do is log on to ArabYouthSurvey.com, and you'll find all of the findings from 2008 to 2020, white papers, great readings with expert commentary as well. So do spend some time. And it's a lot of effort that our firm, BSW and PSP does to bring that survey in a very, very independent fashion, to be able to make sure that you get credible and scientific results of a huge demographic in the Arab world.

MICHAEL MORELL: Sunil, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. I know it's late there, but I really do appreciate you sharing all of this with us.

SUNIL JOHN: Thank you. Such a pleasure, Michael.