Bob Woodward on "War"
Throughout the war in Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin has rattled his nuclear saber, and the U.S. has dismissed those threats as reckless, with Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin calling such rhetoric "very dangerous and unhelpful."
But in the fall of 2022, as Russian forces were retreating, U.S. intelligence warned that, if it turned into a rout, Putin might very well resort to nuclear weapons. "The intelligence community concluded that there was a 50 percent chance, and that scared everyone," said veteran Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward.
It is perhaps the most dramatic moment in Woodward's latest book, "War" (to be published Tuesday by Simon & Schuster). Woodward said, "It's about the Ukraine war, the war in the Middle East, and it's also about the war for the American presidency."
In his patented style, Woodward takes us inside the room when Secretary Austin placed a high-stakes phone call to the Kremlin. He describes what he called an "astonishing" moment, when Austin speaks to Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu: "Austin says, 'We know you are contemplating the use of a tactical nuclear weapon in Ukraine. If you did this, all the restraints that we have been operating under in Ukraine would be reconsidered.'"
Shoigu responded by saying, "I don't take kindly to being threatened." Austin replied, "I am the leader of the most powerful military in the history of the world. I don't make threats."
After that call, Russia falsely claimed Ukraine was preparing to use a "dirty bomb" to spread radioactive contamination. The Russian defense minister called Austin back with this warning: "We all have this intelligence that says the Ukrainians are thinking about using a dirty bomb. If they do this, we would consider this an act of nuclear terrorism, and we'd have no alternative to respond."
According to Woodward, Austin countered this threat by saying, "We don't believe you. We don't see any indications of this. It seems to us like you're trying to establish a predicate for using nuclear weapons."
Martin asked, "How do you know those quotes are accurate?"
"Because there are documents and witnesses," Woodward replied.
"Did you check them with Austin?"
"I had to; this is an important moment," Woodward said. "As I started reading this, Austin says, 'That's accurate. That's accurate.'"
The Russian retreat did not turn into a rout, and Putin pulled back from the brink.
But the war grinds on, and Woodward reports President Joe Biden admitted to National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan Russia's nuclear saber still hangs over Ukraine. Woodward read a direct quote from the president: "Putin is not going to let himself be routed out of Ukraine without breaking the seal on tactical nuclear weapons. So, we are stuck."
U.S. intelligence had warned for months about Putin's plan to invade Ukraine, but was blindsided by the October 7 Hamas rampage into Israel. Mr. Biden's response was immediate, stating on October 7, "The United States stands with Israel. We will not ever fail to have your back."
But four days later, with Israel bombarding Gaza, Mr. Biden pushed back when Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu suddenly informed him he was about to launch a preemptive attack against Hezbollah in Lebanon.
Woodward reports the president's response: "What you are about to do is going to guarantee a regional war. You should not count on our support if you preemptively launch a war against Hezbollah."
As civilian casualties in Gaza continued to rise, Woodward writes, "Biden's frustrations and distrust of ... Netayanhu ... finally erupted … 'That son-of-a-bitch Bibi Netanyahu. He's a bad guy. He's a bad f***ing guy, a bad f***ing guy.'"
Israel has now attacked Hezbollah with everything from exploding beepers to 2,000-pound bombs. And Iran has launched 200 ballistic missiles against Israel, leaving the Middle East on the precipice of an all-out war just weeks before America elects a new president.
Woodward said, "Whoever gets to be President of the United States is going to inherit a world living on the edge of imploding."
Woodward says former President Donald Trump is not fit to hold the office again.
Martin asked, "You're a chronicler of presidents going back to Nixon. Where would you rank Trump?"
"At the very bottom," Woodward replied, "because he was always looking out for himself."
Woodward (who is being sued by Trump over his last book, "The Trump Tapes") writes in "War" that, in the middle of the pandemic, then-President Trump sent Vladimir Putin some hard-to-come-by COVID test machines.
"He gives it to him for his personal use," Woodward said. "People are scrambling for tests. And the President of the United States gives a bunch of them to Putin. It's like feeding the neighbors instead while your own children are starving."
Woodward also claims Trump has held as many as seven phone calls with Putin since leaving office.
A spokesman for Trump says, "None of these made-up stories ... are true."
But last Thursday, a Kremlin spokesman confirmed Putin had received COVID tests from Trump.
Both Trump and President Biden refused to be interviewed for this book, but Woodward has talked to many top administration officials: "I go in, set the tape recorder down, [say] this is on deep background. I'm going to use it all. I'm not going to say where it came from."
"But if somebody wanted to run an investigation on who talked to Woodward, you've given them a lot of evidence to work with," said Martin.
"But I've done this for 52 years, and no one's ever run that investigation," said Woodward. "Why? Because we have a first amendment."
In those 52 years, he has written now 23 books, and seems to have come full circle, dedicating this latest to his Watergate reporting partner Carl Bernstein.
Asked if "War" is his last book, Woodward replied, "Never know."
He's thinking of mining his files for a memoir of his extraordinary career. But he is 81 years old, the same age as President Biden, who decided to step aside rather than risk his legacy.
Martin asked, "You worry about jeopardizing your legacy with writing another book?"
"Look, we don't do our business for legacy," Woodward replied. "We do our business because – you know this – being a reporter is the best job in the world."
READ AN EXCERPT: "War" by Bob Woodward
For more info:
- "War" by Bob Woodward (Simon & Schuster), in Hardcover, eBook and Audio formats, available October 15 via Amazon, Barnes & Nobles and Bookshop.org
Story produced by Mary Walsh. Editor: Joseph Frandino.