Face the Nation transcripts December 8, 2013: Angelou, Baker, Hagel

(CBS News) Below is a transcript of "Face the Nation" on December 8, 2013, hosted by CBS News' Bob Schieffer. Guests include: Maya Angelou, James Baker, Randall Robinson, Colin Powell, Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga., Chuck Hagel, Gwen Ifill, Lorraine Miller, Michele Norris, Rick Stengel, and CBS News' Elizabeth Palmer, Gayle King and Margaret Brennan.

SCHIEFFER: Good morning again. The storm that left parts of the South and Midwest in an icy deep freeze has now moved east. It's expected to hit Virginia and the Mid-Atlantic states today, then move up the East Coast towards Boston and New York. But we begin this morning in South Africa, where Debora Patta begins our coverage of the day of national prayer for Nelson Mandela. Debora?

DEBORA PATTA, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bob. Well, this being a multi-faith country, we saw many church services around the country today as part of the national day of prayer and reflection for Nelson Mandela. In Regina Mundi, the very famous Regina Mundi, which was a pivotal focus of the tension during the anti-Apartheid struggle, we saw a large service there this morning. The priest there compared Nelson Mandela to moonlight because he said he is "the guiding light of this country." There was also a prayer service at a Methodist church in Bryanston in Johannesburg that was attended by President Jacob Zuma and some members of the Mandela family. In attendance, Winnie Madikizela Mandela, Nelson Mandela's former wife, and his grandson, Mandla. But it really is the people of South Africa who are defining the mood here right now. At Mandela's house in Houghton, the wall of flowers and tributes continues to grow. People's song and dance, ever jubilant, is constant throughout the day and night. They are using the voice that Nelson Mandela gave them to celebrate his legacy as really a united, rainbow nation.

SCHIEFFER: And Debora, set the stage for us now. What happens through the rest of this week?

PATTA: Well, Bob, it really is a passing like no other. By far, the biggest public event will be on Tuesday at a soccer stadium in Soweto. There will be a national memorial service that will be attended, we know, by President Barack Obama and his wife Michelle. Also there, President Clinton and President George W. Bush. U.N. Secretary General Ban-ki Moon will also attend; pop stars, actresses, actors, global dignitaries from around the world. South Africa is really gearing up for a period of mourning that I can't really think of having occurred in the world before now, all this for just one remarkable man.

SCHIEFFER: All right. Debora Patta, thank you so much. So many of us came to know Nelson Mandela during his long struggle to bring freedom to South Africa, but Maya Angelou came to know him at the very beginning of his crusade back in the 1960s. She is in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, this morning. Ms. Angelou, it is such a pleasure to have you. How did you come to know Nelson Mandela?

ANGELOU: Good morning, and how wonderful it is to speak with you. Mr. Mandela was an ANC member and actually one of the founders of the African National Union -- National Congress. And I was married to a South African freedom fighter and he was a member of the PAC, which was Pan-African congress. And they were arch-rivals. And Mr. Mandela came to Egypt, where I was living. And I had been so used to these rivals arguing and shouting in the living room and shouting in the street against each other. There was also SWANO, which was South West Africa National Organization, and so forth. They -- and but when Mr. Mandela came, he never had a cross word to say to anyone. I was amazed. I had never seen South Africans who were that kind. He's -- he had a compliment to give to everybody, including my housekeeper and the -- and the doorman. It was amazing. A gentle giant, he was.

SCHIEFFER: You know, you have written a wonderful poem celebrating his life and his passing. The State Department has put it out on a video. I want to ask you about it, how this came about. But let me play just a short clip of the beginning of this poem, if you'll listen with me.

ANGELOU: Thank you.

ANGELOU: The news came on the wings of a wind reluctant to carry its burden. Nelson Mandela's day is done. The news, expected and still unwelcome, reached us in the United States, and suddenly our world became somber. Our skies were leadened. His day is done.

SCHIEFFER: Now, we're going to close our broadcast this morning with your poem, Ms. Angelou, but I wanted to ask you, how did you come to write this? How did this come about and when did you do it?

ANGELOU: Thank you. The State Department -- a person from the State Department telephoned me when he was very sick about a year and a half ago, and they asked if I would write a poem -- write a tribute to him from my people, from the American people. And I said yes. I wrote it, but I also had to agree that I would not even speak about it or release it until 48 hours after he was actually dead, and I agreed. So I -- I did it and I sent it to them, to the State Department. The State Department sent a crew down, and I -- I recorded it. But then I never mentioned it again to anyone, including, I mean, close friends and family members. I just wouldn't do it.

SCHIEFFER: Well, you didn't -- you didn't mention it to us. We didn't know about it until it came out. I'd like to tell people you can find this on the State Department website. You can go to YouTube. You can find it on the CBS website. We will be posting it. It is called "His Day is Done," and we're going to close the broadcast, as I said just a second ago, with your poem. It is such a wonderful piece of work. What did Nelson Mandela mean to you?

ANGELOU: Well, Mr. Schieffer, I think that -- I know that, with the attitudes and the anger in South Africa after apartheid, had there been no Mandela, we would see the blood running in the street. Because apartheid was so brutal and the people were so angry, the black people were so angry, and white people felt so guilty, until Nelson Mandela, released from prison, came out smiling and holding hands with whites and holding white babies and saying, "This is a time for friendship. This is about South Africa, not about Orsa (ph) or Zulu or Shona or Boer. This is about South Africa." And, Mr. Schieffer, it amazes me that today there are people who actually go to South Africa for vacation. 

(LAUGHTER)

That is the -- that is the pure act and the great gift of Nelson Mandela.

SCHIEFFER: What do you suppose it was about him? I mean, he had this center unlike anyone that I think we've ever known about. I mean, as I was thinking about this, I mean, it was not one particular act that Nelson Mandela did that made him a hero. It was his whole life.

ANGELOU: Yes.

SCHIEFFER: Where did that come from, do you think?

ANGELOU: Well, I'm trying to be a Christian, and I'm working at it, anyway. I'm always amazed when people walk up to me and say, "I'm a Christian." I always think, already? You've already got it?

(LAUGHTER)

So I'm trying to be a Christian. I think this would be so for people who are Jews and people who are religious Jews, I mean, and people who are Muslims and Buddhists and so forth. I think it is a center in knowing that there's something greater than you and that that greatness might be called Allah or Yahweh or God or whatever you call it. But there is something greater than you. And there is a good thing to do. You can stand on the good foot. You can say the kind thing. You can be generous. You can. And he showed us that.

(CROSSTALK)

ANGELOU: He showed us also that -- sorry.

SCHIEFFER: Go ahead.

ANGELOU: Well, he also showed us how liberating it is to -- to forgive.

SCHIEFFER: If you were to pass on to the world one thing about Nelson Mandela, what would it be?

ANGELOU: I would -- I would talk about his kindness. You see, I think you can't really forgive unless you're very kind. And so you forgive a person or persons or systems; you forgive them, then you don't have to drag them around with you every day, all day and all night long. And so you do it -- it's a gift to yourself to forgive. And I would say that Nelson Mandela's gift to the world was his ability to forgive.

SCHIEFFER: We will play your poem at the conclusion of our broadcast. Maya Angelou, it is always a pleasure, may I say an honor, to have you with us this morning.

ANGELOU: I thank you so much. And it's -- I've been so excited to speak to you. Thank you very much.

SCHIEFFER: Thank you. Six years before Nelson Mandela was released from prison, an anti-Apartheid activist named Randall Robinson staged a sit-in in front of the South African embassy here. He was arrested, but the protests continued and public outrage against apartheid began to grow. In 2012, Randall Robinson was honored by the South African government for his efforts to end apartheid. He joins us this morning from his home on St. Kitts. Mr. Robinson, thank you so much for being with us. Of course Nelson Mandela is revered in this country now. But in those days, that was not the case at all. Take us back to those days when you organized those sit-ins and tell us about that.

RANDALL ROBINSON, TRANSAFRICA FOUNDER: We were trying to build an environment, an atmosphere in which to remove the uderpinning that the United States had been providing to South Africa and investments and loans, computer technology and military assistance of one kind or another. We were the legs on which apartheid stood, together with other industrialized western nations. And so we thought our role was to remove that underpinning. And so when we went to the embassy and met with Ambassador Foray (ph), we told him we wouldn't leave until Nelson Mandela had been released from prison. At the time, few Americans knew much about Nelson Mandela. And we thought we had to build a big public story, more information in America that would inform Americans about the role that our country had been playing. The ambassador had us arrested and that was followed by 5,000 Americans who came to the embassy over the next year every day to be arrested and we joined that with the work we were doing with the congress, in the senate. Senator Edward Kennedy played a major role in the house, William H. Grey III played a major role. And we would meet on a regular basis in Senator Kennedy's office to plan the legislation that we would try to power through the congress on the winds of these demonstrations that continued to grow and across the country they grew. In the last analysis, the comprehensive anti-apartheid act was passed over the veto of President Ronald Reagan.

SCHIEFFER: After going through all of that, how did you feel the day that Nelson Mandela walked out of that prison. Did you really, when you were working for this ever really think in your heart of hearts that this might actually happen?

ROBINSON: We thought it could happen. But we also thought that it was possible that a new generation of activists would have to take up of what we had begun. Last -- or year before last, my wife and I went to South Africa to receive the honors on the occasion of the country's freedom day and to celebrate the first democratic elections in South Africa. And we were in our hotel looking over at the ceremonies in a park. And flying over us were 11 jets roaring, fighter jets roaring above our heads, fanning out in vapor trails the colors of the South African flag. And the jets were flown by black South African women. Symbolically that caused us much celebration in our hotel. And since apartheid ended 2 million homes have been -- millions of homes have been built, millions of homes have been electrified in South Africa, black family salaries have virtually tripled in the country. And so Nelson Mandela ushered in a dramatically different kind of South Africa. And we thought that it was our responsibility to play a small part in that struggle, because our country was a major part of the black community's problem in South Africa. We were on the wrong side of the issue and on the wrong side of history.

SCHIEFFER: It is story that has not yet ended and story that goes on. Mr. Robinson, thank you so much for being with us today.

ROBINSON: Thank you for having me.

SCHIEFFER: And we'll be back in one minute with former Secretary of State James Baker.

SCHIEFFER: We're back with former Secretary of State James Baker who is in Falfurrias, Texas this morning. Mr. Baker, thank you for joining us.You were part of the Reagan administration back when President Reagan vetoed the anti-apartheid act that Randall Robinson discussed here just a minute ago. I wanted to ask you, did Ronald Reagan ever come to regret that veto? It was overridden by the congress and sanctions were put on the South African government. But how did President Reagan feel about that as time went on?

JAMES BAKER, FRM. U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I'm sure he did regret it, Bob. In fact, I'm certain that he did. It was, after all, I think the only time that a veto of his had been overwritten or was overridden, or was overridden in two terms, I believe. And so certainly he regretted it. On the other hand, once that happened and control of South Africa policy passed through the congress, President Reagan was really determined to meet with and deal with the question of -- meet with the black leaders of South Africa and deal with the problems of apartheid. And he was able to do so. You know, I had the privilege of meeting with Nelson Mandela in Namibia on the occasion of Namibian Independence Day just three short weeks after he had been released from prison. And I have to tell that you I was really amazed at the soft spokenness of this man, at the conviction of this man, at the dignity of this man. He was -- he had an enduring and endearing presence of dignity that I don't think I've ever seen on any other person. And I just have always felt that is was an extraordinarily beautiful human being who became, of course, an icon of freedom, of human rights and of reconciliation. How many people forgive their captors when they have been kept in prison for 27 years. And as Maya Angelou said to you earlier in the program, had it not been for Nelson Mandela and by the way, F.W. de Klerk, there would have been blood flowing in the streets where apartheid ended in South Africa, because of Nelson Mandela and F.W. de Klerk apartheid ended peacefully.

SCHIEFFER: Now that was after you became secretary of state when you met with him and by that time George H.W. Bush was president. Tell me a little bit about the meeting with F.W. de Klerk.

BAKER: After I met with Mandela in Windhoek, Namibia I went to Pretoria, South Africa to meet with F.W. de Klerk, first time I had gone to South Africa as secretary of state. And as a matter of fact, during my meeting with Mandela he was not happy with the fact that we were going to meet with F.W. de Klerk, but our position was we wanted to try to work with him constructively to end apartheid. Mandela didn't want to see us do that. As it turned out, it ended up being the right thing to do. But when I met with F.W. de Klerk in Pretoria, at the end of our meeting he called me in to a room, just the two of us. And he said, Mr. Secretary, I want to tell you something, I am going to be the last white president of South Africa. That was a startling statement at the time if you think back to 1990. As it turned out, of course, that was correct.

SCHIEFFER: Why do you think it took so long for them to take Nelson Mandela off the terrorist watch list? They had to get a waiver for him to come into in the country. I think he finally wasn't taken of until 2008?

BAKER: Well, I don't know the answer to that, Bob. I really don't. I don't remember frankly all the facts regarding that. He did come -- he came, I thought, before 2008, made one visit.

SCHIEFFER: Oh, he did, but he was...

BAKER: I know this...

SCHIEFFER: They had to do a waiver to get him in to the country.

BAKER: Well, that's probably correct. I do know this, he came to my institute, the institute that was named for me at Rice University in Houston, Texas, in 1999. And just to give you a sense of the greatness of this man, a 12-year-old boy asked him after his presentation, how do you want to be remembered, Mr. Mandela, everyone talks about how you're almost a saint and Mandela said, son, he said, I'm no saint. I am not an angel, he said. In fact I am no saint unless you consider a saint to be a sinner who keeps on trying.

SCHIEFFER: All right.

BAKER: And I thought that was a wonderful encapsulation of the person.

SCHIEFFER: Well, that's a wonderful way to end this. Thank you so much for being with us, Mr. Secretary.

BAKER: Thank you, Bob.

SCHIEFFER: Back in a minute.

SCHIEFFER: This summer when Nelson Mandela's health took to the worse, I asked two great Americans, Colin Powell and John Lewis what Nelson Mandela meant to hem.

SCHIEFFER: Powell had been invited to Mandela's inaugural. And as military man remembers thinking that he saw something that day he would not have thought possible -- white generals showing allegiance to the country's new black president. But it was Mandela's sense of forgiveness that Powell will carry with him forever.

COLIN POWELL, FRM. SECRETARY OF STATE: When he came out of jail, he was being pestered with questions and what not. And he was asked, well, aren't you mad, what are you going to do about this? What are you going to do this these people who did this to you for all these many, many years? And he said, if i felt that way, and if I felt I had to do something to them I would still be in jail. My mind, my soul would still be in jail. So instead he talked about reconciliation, he talked about truth and reconciliation. He is the hold of Gandhi or somebody like that, whose message was universal. And he's a remarkable man, and it is my privilege to know him.

SCHIEFFER: To John Lewis, one of the heroes of the American civil rights movement, Mandela will always be the great teacher.

JOHN LEWIS, CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: Nelson Mandela, this one man, taught all of us how to live, how not to become bitter or hostile, someone who can go to prison and stay all those years and come out so free, not hating anyone, not putting anyone down. I wish we had a few Nelson Mandelas in America or maybe a few more in the world to point us to the best part of our human spirit.

SCHIEFFER: There are many heroes who by a single act or decision have changed history or at least their time. To me, what sets Nelson Mandela apart is that his whole life was a lesson. a lesson in courage, perseverance, patience, bravery and finally forgiveness and redemption. That is rare.

SCHIEFFER: We'll be right back.

SCHIEFFER: And welcome back to Face the Nation page two. We'll have a lot more on Nelson Mandela in just a moment. But there is some breaking news this morning on two fronts -- Afghanistan and Iran. We want to go first to Liz Palmer who has just arrived in Tehran.

LIZ PALMER, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: The first big milestone in the post Geneva era of nuclear cooperation between Iran and the west have been passed, Bob. There is a highly controversial reactor outside of Tehran which could in the end produce plutonium which could be used for a bomb. It has been off limits to the international agency inspectors, but today the were allowed access to the site. I should stress that this deal, this cooperative deal with the west is not universally popular here in Iran. President Rouhani gave a big speech at a university yesterday. And he was heckled by hard liners who really feel as if his reformist government has sold out. He was also heckled by students who want more reforms, political and economic, and they want them faster, which really underlines how he is going to have to tread a very clever, diplomatic path from here on in.

SCHIEFFER: All right, well, Liz Palmer, this story is going to go on all week. We know you'll keep us posted as it unfolds. Thank you so much, Liz. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel is in Afghanistan this morning. But Afghan President Hamid Karzai is noticeably absent. He is in Iran. And in a meeting with the Iranian president, Rouhani, earlier today, Rouhani said Iran opposes the presence of all foreign troops in Afghanistan. Karzai has so far refused to sign the agreement between Afghanistan and the United States to protect American troops if a small group of them remain in the country to train Afghan forces past 2014. Our CBS News State Department correspondent, Margaret Brennan, is traveling with the secretary, and he told her about a half hour ago that if Karzai does not sign this agreement, we may have no alternative but to leave.

MARGARET BRENNAN, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Two thousand Americans have died here. Billions of dollars have been spent. And yet the president of this country is putting off signing this agreement. I mean that has to be incredibly frustrating.

CHUCK HAGEL, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, it is, except for this. The loya jirga, which represented thousands of citizens and leaders in Afghanistan, met a couple of weeks ago, as you know. Overwhelmingly, over 90 percent of those people strongly supported...

BRENNAN: Right.

HAGEL: -- a U.S. partnership past 2014, along with our partners.

BRENNAN: And yet the president says he's not going to sign it until this spring...

HAGEL: Well...

BRENNAN: -- even though they approved it.

HAGEL: I know. I think the more he involves himself, President Karzai, and listens to his people, which leaders must do, I hope he'll come to the right decision on this. Because we need that bilateral agreement -- security agreement signed for our own planning, for our own purposes, as well as our international partners, because if there's uncertainty, if the president of this country doesn't make a decision on this, then you're right, there will be some questions as to how and what we do from here.

BRENNAN: General Dempsey said it is a possibility that there will be a full U.S. retreat from Afghanistan because of the uncertainty around the standoff with the security agreement. I mean how real of a possibility is that?

HAGEL: Well, it's a very real possibility, because if we don't have a bilateral security agreement, which I have noted, that means we can't protect our forces that would be here after 2014. No international partners will come. Afghanistan essentially will be alone. But we have no other option. We can't plan for it. The president can't commit American forces or the United States of America, no other country can, unless we are protected with an agreement.

BRENNAN: With a zero option, no U.S. soldiers, isn't that an American retreat?

HAGEL: Well, you can use any term you want, retreat or not renewing our efforts here post-2014. You can say it any way you want. But what I'm saying is unless we have the security of an agreement to protect our forces, then we'll have no choice. We will not be able to stay.

BRENNAN: American people look at this, all the blood, all the treasure, they hear things that Hamid Karzai says about adding new demands to the -- before he signs this security agreement, just a refusal to comply. I mean he's not even here in the country while you, the secretary of Defense, are in country. Why not? You know, why can't Americans look at that and say, it's just not worth it?

HAGEL: Well, I think that is a legitimate question, that we should ask that question, is it worth it or not worth it? It needs to be asked, and especially in a representative government, a democracy, those questions must be asked. So it is now up to President Karzai to make a decision.

BRENNAN: Did the U.S. miscalculate in thinking he could be a partner?

HAGEL: We were surprised. We didn't understand what he said going into the loya jirga, as you noted, in support of the BSA as it was agreed to when Secretary Kerry was over here with him a few weeks ago. And then to have him come back and try to reopen some of these issues, yes, it was disappointing. Yes, it was surprising. But, you know, we're dealing with the realities that we have before us.

SCHIEFFER: The secretary of Defense with our Margaret Brennan. We'll be right back with more on Nelson Mandela.

SCHIEFFER: Well, we're going to continue our look at Nelson Mandela's legacy. And to help us do that, I want to welcome to the panel this morning, CBS "THIS MORNING" cohost Gayle King. Usually I'm sitting on her set, but today, we are thrilled to have her here with us on "Face The Nation."

GAYLE KING, CO-HOST, CBS "THIS MORNING": Good to be here.

SCHIEFFER: Lorraine Miller, who, I must say, is an old friend of mine from way back in Texas. She is now the interim head of the NAACP. We welcome her to the broadcast. Gwen Ifill, the co-anchor of PBS "NewsHour," the moderator of "Washington Week." And Michelle Morris is the NPR host and special correspondent. And way up there in New York, Rick Stengel, the former managing editor of "Time Magazine." They have put out a special issue honoring Mandela this week. Rick also worked closely with Nelson Mandela on his biography and wrote the book "Mandela's Way." But I want to start with Gayle King. You really came to know Nelson Mandela quite well.

KING: I actually did. I have to say that I am forever grateful to Oprah for that. Oprah and Nelson Mandela had deep affection for each other. And because he thought so highly of her, he welcomed anybody that she introduced him to. So my children and I were invited, along with Oprah, to lunch at his house. He used to say, Bob, that you have breakfast alone, lunch with your friends and dinner with your enemies, because he believed in order to make peace with your enemies, you had to work with your enemies and then your enemies would become your partner. well, we had this fabulous lunch at a big table much like this, so much so that my son was sitting here and he said Mr. Mandela, could you please pass the peas? I don't know if I was more afraid that he asked for peas or that he called him Mr. Mandel. I didn't have that conversation where you say don't talk, don't talk, just sit there very quietly. But, you know, I will never forget his grace. You know, you want to sit in his presence with a pad and a paper, because everything he said was magical. Everything.

SCHIEFFER: Well, and, again, you're talking about how nice he was to your children. Over and over, I've heard from people this week saying he was so nice to the person that worked for me. He was so nice to the maid. He was so nice to -- to somebody, not the big people.

KING: No, but I know -- I know that he loved children. I remember specifically asking him, what did you miss most in prison. He said the sound and laughter of children is what he missed more than anything. And he couldn't wait until he got out to hear the sound and laughter of children. He had great affinity for kids.

SCHIEFFER: How do you think he was able to maintain his core that he had? I mean, 27 years. I mean we hear our politicians talking about, oh, this is such a hard vote I have to take. I might get a primary opponent if I vote this way. I never heard Nelson Mandela express concern about possibly getting a primary opponent.

KING: No. And you never heard him complain. That's why it is so interesting to see the people in the streets, black people and white people together, on streets where people died, actually. You know, many times in South Africa, they -- they sing and dance through pain. They sing and dance through their sorrow. So to see the blacks and whites together on the streets, where people literally died for apartheid, is -- it's -- it's because of Nelson Mandela.

SCHIEFFER: Rick, you worked with him so closely over a long period of time, when his passing finally came, how did you feel about that?

RICK STENGEL, FORMER MANAGING EDITOR, "TIME" MAGAZINE: You know, Bob, I mean, as Gayle knows, he hadn't really been himself for -- for some years. So I think some of us felt like we had said goodbye earlier. But the other thing about being close to Mandela is that you cannot ever possess him. Everybody possesses him. And, in fact, when I stopped working with him back when the book was almost done, it was like the sun had gone out of my life. I mean I was mourning for a couple of years. So -- and I know that's how lots and lots of people felt.

SCHIEFFER: Lorraine, you and I have known each other for so long, back when you worked for Jim Wright, when he was speaker of the House...

MILLER: Sure.

SCHIEFFER: ... and the other speakers. And you were on the Hill. You were there when the sanctions legislation came along. The House passed -- Congress passed a bill to put sanctions on South Africa and then President Reagan vetoed it. The Congress overrode that veto, one of the few vetoes that was ever overwritten.

MILLER: Yeah, huge. It was huge. It was a time -- rarely do you see them rise up and really get engaged in something. And, given the protests, a lot of members were going to the South African embassy. The NAACP was involved with the protests at the South African embassy. So you saw a groundswell of protests and righteous indignation from a lot of...

SCHIEFFER: Do you think that was because of Nelson Mandela himself or just because the issue -- people were beginning to understand how wrong this was, what was happening?

MILLER: I think a lot of it was Nelson Mandela himself. Because of his commitment -- you were talking to Gayle about what fortified him, I mean, it was his own personal commitment, I think, that made him so unique, and not in just this country but in the world. How many people do you think could endure 27 years in prison and come out with the -- with the kind of attitude that President Mandela possessed? It was just unbelievable.

SCHIEFFER: And just to say he was in prison is not quite enough. I mean, when you go back, and we've all seen film this week of that prison...

MILLER: Right.

SCHIEFFER: ... what it looked like and how confining it was and how he could see Johannesburg...

MILLER: Yeah, from the distance...

SCHIEFFER: ... when they let him look out the window, as it were. It's just astonishing. Michele, you went to his inauguration. What must that have been like?

NORRIS: It -- it was unbelievable. I was working in television then, and the producer had to keep whispering in my ear, "Stop moving." Because everyone was doing the toyi-toyi, and it was impossible not to start doing it along with them.

(LAUGHTER)

What you saw on full display there was his moral compass. And I think that's what, maybe, motivated Congress, but motivated so many of us. It's hard to underestimate how much anger there was among black South Africans and how much fear there was among white South Africans. And the fact that he had his former warden there at the inauguration; the fact that he was reaching out a hand and an olive branch made -- it made such a difference in that country and, really, in the rest of the world. And there's one thing that I think is an important nuance, though, that we need to understand, is people say he wasn't bitter. People who were closest to him say he actually was bitter. He spent -- he spent 27 years; that's 10,000 days, more than 10,000 days, in prison. He didn't hear the voice of children. He -- his marriage suffered. His friendships suffered. But to understand his magnificence, you need to understand that he was bitter and he did battle with his anger and he won. And that's one of the most important lessons, I think, for all of us.

SCHIEFFER: That's a very important point to make. Gwen, you saw all of this; you saw American attitudes towards South Africa -- you saw them change. What do you think -- what do you think the attitudes are today?

IFILL: Well, I think American attitudes are not necessarily in sync with what South Africa is going through right now. Nelson Mandela was kind; he was visionary; he was bitter and managed to bite his tongue for decades. But he also was a very shrewd and steely politician. And he did what he need to do in order to take his country where it needed to go. So if that meant that he had to be in league with Fidel Castro, which got him in trouble as a revolutionary, he would do that, but he would go to Sweden and say what they needed to hear. He would come to the United States and ally himself with the U.S. Civil Rights movement. And then he brought it home. And as a result now, South Africa which still has troubles, which still has 30 percent unemployment, which this rainbow nation doesn't exactly exist the way we like to think it does, is now left in -- with the absence of him to look at their current leaders and their future leaders and realizing nobody quite measures up, partly because the goals were different. The ideals are different. The -- the challenges are different. The economy is still struggling. And you will never see the likes of a Nelson Mandela again. And maybe neither should we. Perhaps he was a man of his time. The question, I guess, now, especially for all the young people -- they called them "born free" if they were born after he was -- after he was no longer president. And he was one term as president, which was another smart thing, very smart thing.

KING: One of the few African leaders who stepped down willingly.

IFILL: Exactly.

KING: Very few people who were in that position say, you know what, I'm done; I'm going to move on to something else.

SCHIEFFER: One of the few leaders...

(CROSSTALK)

KING (?): He understood democracy was fragile...

SCHIEFFER: One of the few leaders -- I mean, when you look right up at the Capitol... (CROSSTALK)

... where they sometimes have to take them out on a gurney before they know their time is up. Let me -- I just want to ask Rick one thing off what Michele was talking about. Did he have an entourage? I mean, so many of our politicians today -- they have media coaches and speechwriters and all that kind of business. What sort of help did he have?

STENGEL: You know, Bob, when I first started working with him, he hadn't been out of prison very long and he had almost nobody around him. There were many mornings -- we would do the interviews in the mornings and I would come over to his house in Houghton and he would answer the door. Nobody was there. It was early in the morning.

(LAUGHTER)

We -- we did some interviews in his bedroom. And in fact I'll never forget that he -- he was so precise, and all those years in prison, he had a big king-size bed, but he would only sleep on one side of it. So in the morning, one side was perfectly made and the other side was slightly mussed, and then he would make the bed himself. So he did not have a lot of people around him. And in fact his learning curve, when he came out, was kind of astonishing. Because people say, yes, he was paying attention to the news while he was in prison. But there are so many things, from women's rights, from television, that he knew nothing about and he had to learn so fast and adapt so fast. And it was astonishing to watch.

SCHIEFFER: Did he write his own speeches?

STENGEL: He didn't really -- you know, I know this is, kind of, a faux pas to say he wasn't the world's greatest speaker, as you see. And I always used to say to him, you know, "Madiba, throw out your notes and throw out the text and speak from the heart," which of course he did sometimes. But remember, when he came out, he was a loyal member of the ANC, as he said. And part of his virtue as a politician was that he changed and bended. The ANC said, "the nationalization of the minds." He believed that when he came out of prison, and he changed his mind. But what he always believed and never forgot, and it's a little bit unpopular to say now, is he believed politics was a way of changing people's lives for the better. And he was proud to call himself a politician, and that is what he did.

SCHIEFFER: Michele?

NORRIS: And as a politician, he also understood a dramatic flourish. I mean, there were moments -- and we saw that in 1990 when he did that eight-city tour. I think about when he went to Detroit and he quoted Marvin Gaye... (CROSSTALK)

NORRIS: ... you know, in front of that audience, and it was brilliant. "Mother, mother, too many of you are crying" -- "Brother, brother, too many of you are dying. Mother, mother, too many of you are crying." He understood the moment and would veer from scripts when he wanted to connect.

SCHIEFFER: What did he say when he was in New York?

KING: Can I just tell a story, Bob? When we were doing Christmas Kindness in South Africa, we'd go to these remote villages. Thousands of kids would be sitting there waiting for their soccer balls and their jersey. And a local politician went on for an hour about political theory. Madiba was about to speak. He got up and did "Twinkle, twinkle, little star," and then sat down.

(LAUGHTER)

He knew the beauty of an audience.  And we were at Christmas Kindness at his house in Qunu, and, you know, the crowd -- there were not enough toys; the crowd was getting unruly; they were breaking down the fence. His security said, "No, Madiba, you can't go. No, Oprah, you can't go." And he said, "I am going. I am going out into the crowd. Oprah said, "I'm going out into the crowd." And I'm saying, "I don't want to be that guy. I'm going out into the crowd, too," but...

(LAUGHTER)

... it was a very frightening situation. He had such faith and such trust in -- in humankind.

SCHIEFFER: What did he mean to you, Lorraine?

MILLER: Well, a man of humility. The one time -- I met him twice. But the first time was a part of congressional delegation. He'd been released from prison about 23 days and we took a big group down. He came in the room and he was just so humble. He was -- he reminded me of my grandfather. They had uncanny resemblance. And I told him that. And I said, you know, "Mr. Mandela" -- I showed him a picture of my grandfather, and he says, "We're all brothers." And my grandfather had passed away by then. But it was just his constant humility. And I think one of the things that -- I look at the nexus of the NAACP and our struggle in Civil Rights in this country, and the struggle that was continuing in -- going on in South Africa, there's a nexus there that really made us as brothers, and we had such an affinity with him. So -- but he means a lot to me.

IFILL: But, you know, I think we would miss an opportunity if we treated everything that he accomplished, everything he was as, as something that we look back on, as the past. In fact, he left homework for us to do.

MILLER: Yes, he did. Absolutely, Gwen.

IFILL: He left -- not only in South Africa but also for us here. How do we relate? I mean, the things that we get upset about that we don't speak to people about, the fights we have, when look what he forgave. Look what -- how he reconciled. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa is still one of the most amazing things that's ever happened on the world stage. The accusers could face their accused and actually do something about it. He created -- he and Desmond Tutu created that possibility, and he left that work for us to do here, the lesson that we should take from that as well as there.

NORRIS: And he focused on truth. We focus a lot on reconciliation, but part of that was looking back at a difficult history and telling the truth about that history. We have a hard time doing that in this country.

KING: Even today. I like Dr. Angelou's point at the beginning that he taught us all about the power and the importance of forgiveness. I mean, and you look at your own day-to-day lives, about things that you're, sort of, gnashing your teeth to powder about. If he could do that, imagine how much better the world would be if we could just take that one little lesson, the power and importance of forgiveness.

IFILL: I had a friend say the other night that he was trying to explain to his son why he shouldn't be fighting with his sister and said, "Listen, if Nelson Mandela can get over this, perhaps you can."

(LAUGHTER)

MILLER: You know, and we still have so much to do. I was down last night at the mall for the -- the Fast for Families, which is unbelievable, with immigration, and the same thing that we're going to have to do for voting rights. I just -- he left us so much work and gave us a road map to do it.

SCHIEFFER: We're going to have to leave it there. Thank you all so much.

(UNKNOWN): This is quite a table you...

(CROSSTALK)

(UNKNOWN): ... Bob Schieffer, I have to say. (LAUGHTER)

SCHIEFFER: This was really, really something. Thank you all.

(UNKNOWN): Thank you.

SCHIEFFER: And thank you, Rick, up there in New York. We'll be back in a minute.

SCHIEFFER: We leave you with more of Maya Angelou's tribute to Nelson Mandela.

ANGELOU: No sun outlasts its sunset but will rise again and bring the dawn. Yes, Mandela's day is done, yet we, his inheritors, will open the gates wider for reconciliation, and we will respond generously to the cries of blacks and whites, Asian, Hispanics, the poor who live piteously on the floor of our planet. He has offered us understanding. We will not withhold forgiveness even from those who do not ask. Nelson Mandela's day is done. We confess it in tearful voices, yet we lift our own to say thank you. Thank you, our Gideon. Thank you, our David. Our great, courageous man, we will not forget you. We will not dishonor you. We will remember and be glad that you lived among us, that you taught us and that you loved us all.